Well I for one could afford much more than the 40 kWh car, but can't justify the extra cost. It's illogical to spend that money when 99% of my driving is well within the range of the 40 kWh car. Just would be nice to have the option to Supercharge in the rare event I want to take the Model S on a longer road trip. But it looks like I'll be doing the sensible thing and just rent a nice car for those road trips. I do believe the twin-charger is available for all models. I likely will be getting it, if no supercharge option is offered on the 40 kWh battery pack option.
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No Supercharging for 40Kwh :(
- Thread starter fairlycool
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Well I for one could afford much more than the 40 kWh car, but can't justify the extra cost. It's illogical to spend that money when 99% of my driving is well within the range of the 40 kWh car. Just would be nice to have the option to Supercharge in the rare event I want to take the Model S on a longer road trip. But it looks like I'll be doing the sensible thing and just rent a nice car for those road trips. I do believe the twin-charger is available for all models. I likely will be getting it, if no supercharge option is offered on the 40 kWh battery pack option.
The forum buzzes with people demanding 90kW supercharging for a 40kWh pack that is designed for maximum energy density and thus has low power density. Others want a quick charging capability that deserves that name, something around 40kW. They don't find 20kW charging sufficient for the "occasional road trip" scenario. Solutions are demanded from Tesla.
Well good luck, guys.
Some Europeans here demanded capability to charge while traveling with more than a measly 7.7kW and are denied a solution, be it the Roadster or Model S. Tesla states that the only planned solution is supercharging, and all they really care about is the U.S. market.
Now that we share a common bitterness between European and US base model customers, let's demand a solution that works for all of us. Tesla should provide an option for a unified on board charger that delivers 20kW at 240V80A single phase and 44kW at 400V@64A 3~ AC.
The expensive super charger installations along the highways can be interspersed with cheap three phase sockets
- 40kW charging becomes possible for base Model S on a highway stop
- overnight charging with 11kW or 22kW becomes a possibility for residents with 3 phase support but balanced load requirements
- road trips of European main land becomes possible with 44kW AC charging
A charger efficiency of 92% for the 10kW is pathetic and clearly leads to thermal problems, be it inside the car or inside a supercharger using 9 of these. They should license a decent 3 phase design with 97% efficiency. The freed up cooling capacity then can be redirected to the pack.
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ljbad4life
Member
The "option" to super charge costs money. It costs for the 60kwh pack and if it were available would cost for the the 40kwh pack. So why spend cash for 1% whether it be 2k or 10 k? I was not directing that statement to you, but there a more than a few threads and post that go "I can haz no super charger because Tesla hates me". The twin charger gives you 62 miles per hour charged, which can be used for trips of 250-300 miles or less and still be speedy enough to get you to your destination in a reasonable amount of time. If you want a highway road trip car the 60kwh pack is the least someone can buy.
You're right. I'm pretty sure this was ultimately a cost and business decision by Tesla. They really wanted to hit that sub $50k price target on the baseline model. And removing the cost of Supercharging allowed them to get there. I would at least like the option, just as the 60kWh pack will have the option (currently it says the price of Supercharging on the 60 kWh is TBD), but I am somewhat resigned to the fact that I'll simply have to rent a car for those trips longer than the Tesla's range.
I wasn't aware that EU costumers were limited to just 7.7 kWh charging. Sounds rough. I'm all for trying to persuade Tesla to improve its charging technology on all battery pack models. What efforts have EU members made? (petition? written letters?)
Tesla could have said ok, we were able to design the 40 kWh car with everything you want but it's now $57,000 after tax credit. Would that have made people happier? The 40 kWh car will still perform well and be a great car without Super Charging. Roadster owners don't have super charging and are largely happy. It would be nice ok but one owner in Germany has over 40,000 miles on his car! All without a super charger.
This is not to diminish anyones frustration with the 40 kWh Model S not including a feature they thought it would have, just to try and point out it may not be a big a problem as they think it is.
This is not to diminish anyones frustration with the 40 kWh Model S not including a feature they thought it would have, just to try and point out it may not be a big a problem as they think it is.
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I'm not sure where I would find use for the 20kW charger. As far as I know Norway has currently 3 options for charging.
1: 230V 10A or 16A which is regular plug, that's upto 3.6kW, and usually only 3.0kW is sustainable.
2: ChadeMO DC quickchargers several paid for by Nissan, others paid for by utilities or Statoil, usually upto 50% financed by the state/county
3: 3-phase "industrial" plug might be 40A or more I'm not sure.
Currently Tesla supports option 1 upto 3.0kW. Any superchargers installed in Norway (which I find doubtfull) will not be available for me with a 40kW pack.
Does people see why I think this is a problem for Tesla in their second largest market.
I have spoken with my contact at Tesla and he said Tesla would suppport quickcharging of some sort, but he would get back to me with specifics. I'm guessing noone knows right now, but the sensible thing would be access to the ChadeMo network of QC which is currently being built out.
Cobos
When on road trips, I've never been able to get more than 9.6 kW charging for my Roadster. It would be very nice to have twice that, let's say, uh... 20kW.
I'm puzzled -- how do electric ovens, electric clothes driers, and similar high-load home appliances get enough power? 230V 16A is not enough power for a double wall-oven.
I take road trips in the Leaf, if 200 miles one way can be called a road trip. It's usually around 1-1.5 hours driving and 20-30 minutes charging. Works for me. Top legal speed over here is 62mph anyway.
Seems typical Norweigan home oven would be slow to warm up by USA standards...
DÃ…TID OV8 Varmluftsovn - IKEA
Translated:
You can still get hot enough with lower current (230V single phase 16A), just takes longer to warm up.
Clothes dryer does not need more than 16A, I know of no models that require more. Space heaters are max 2kW, usually much less. Cooktops usually have a special 25A connector, so 5.75kW max. Ovens are 16A 3.6kW. Double-wall ovens don't exist here, you'd have to use two single ones on different 16A sockets.
But I suspect he was talking about public charging spots. We have in excess of 3000 of those (with a population of 5 million, so the US would have to have 2 million of them to equal the density) but they are all 230V 16A Shuko-sokects. No J1772, no Mennekes, no 32A CEE sockets. We also have quite a few CHAdeMO stations with many more to come next year. Along my usual 200 mile road trip to my cabin I can access 5 different CHAdeMO chargers, next year there should be at least 10.
You might find larger sockets somewhere, like 3x32A 400V behind stores for garbage compactors. They are usually not for public use
I don't think that maths works... 1.5 hours x 62mph = 93 miles
62mph is the max. On a few roads. Most of the roads I travel on have speed limits of 43 or 50mph with quite a few 37mph stretches. So 1 hour at 62mph or 1.5 hours at 50mph to use 70-80% of the battery.
sorry, still don't get the maths... 1.5 hours x 50mph = 75 miles
Are you saying that to do a 200 mile trip you drive 4 hours x 50mph and fast charge three times to 80% (total trip time ~6 hours)?
Hmm our clothes-dryer pulls max 2kW so are a lot slower than the ones you've got in the US.
My little 1 bedroom apartment has a main breaker which is 40A 3-phase and the bathroom breaker is just 16A 230V, and that can run the washing machine and the clothes dryer at the same time.
Our electric oven has a separate dedicated breaker which is 20A 230V. That I believe is pretty normal. You can of course get more than 16A but then it's almost always 3-phase unless it's just 20A. As I live in an apartment I doubt I'll get my garage owner to install anything but 16A. I don't need anything else anyway for overnight charging. It's the faster than overnight charging I'm worried about, where I need a lot more than 20A 230V which is just 4kW.
Cobos
Average speed usually ends up at about 45mph so it's more like 4.5 hours of driving (and 205 miles total). Next year another needed fast charger (at least for winter) goes up so it's more like this:
Drive 60 miles, charge for 20 minutes
Drive 40 miles, charge for 10 minutes (20 minutes in winter)
Drive 35 miles, charge for 15 minutes
Drive 30 miles, charge for 45 minutes (need a full battery for the last leg and back here on the return trip)
Drive 40 miles to destination. Only generator charging available here.
So yes, it's about 6 hours total, somewhat more in the winter months.
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