NO TURN ON RED

[Dan D.]

Lots of unusual signals on these pages:

Unusual uses of traffic lights​

Variations in traffic light operation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unusual uses of traffic lights

Unusual uses of traffic lights, as used in various regional locations, may for example include traffic lights used in a non standard fashion, or in a non standard arrangement, or for specific traffic. Alternating Alternates (Flashing Lights) In…

en-academic.com

 

[aronth5]

No, you can't make a right (or left) turn on a red arrow unless there is a sign posted that allows it. The Uniform Vehicle Code and Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices state:

As others have said this is not correct. Massachusetts is another example. In fact Mass has the distinction of the last state in the country to allow right on red back in 1980.
https://www.mass.gov/doc/chapter-4-rules-of-the-road-0/download
This is a very interesting document since it includes a nice listing of what Tesla has to consider when reviewing laws for all 50 states and DC. It makes you realize how difficult getting regulatory approval will be for driverless cars across the country let alone the rest of the world.

 

[haroldo]

the fact that you are shocked shocks me.

“The problems of using the general public to beta test” for $500 Alex.

No need to be obnoxious about this.
I commented that way for emphasis, as to the fact that the car not only didn't read a pretty standard sign, but that they didn't bother to include any notification. I had assumed that if it can read speed limit signs, and stop signs, without any word from company (they have no problem alerting us to fart sounds, video games, and light shows) it was might be safe to assume it could read some of the other, fairly common signs. It would have cost Tesla nothing to alert the fleet, since, it's a pretty big safety issue. I'll bet quite a few drivers were surprised when their car drove into the intersection on a red.
Since getting the car, and using Autopilot, and not FSD, I've been fully prepared to for all the mistakes, and boneheaded moves.
I expect the car to make the wrong move at the wrong time, and have easily handled all problems

Forums can be a great place to learn, share, and help....but are ruined when folks resort to insulting, rude, and condescending comments

 

[qdeathstar]

I wasn’t being rude or insulting. My response was a response to @GlmnAlyAirCar post where he expects people will know all of the ins and outs of fsd while it’s in beta.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I wasn’t being rude or insulting. My response was a response to @GlmnAlyAirCar post where he expects people will know all of the ins and outs of fsd while it’s in beta.

No need to be obnoxious about this.
I commented that way for emphasis, as to the fact that the car not only didn't read a pretty standard sign, but that they didn't bother to include any notification. I had assumed that if it can read speed limit signs, and stop signs, without any word from company (they have no problem alerting us to fart sounds, video games, and light shows) it was might be safe to assume it could read some of the other, fairly common signs. It would have cost Tesla nothing to alert the fleet, since, it's a pretty big safety issue. I'll bet quite a few drivers were surprised when their car drove into the intersection on a red.
Since getting the car, and using Autopilot, and not FSD, I've been fully prepared to for all the mistakes, and boneheaded moves.
I expect the car to make the wrong move at the wrong time, and have easily handled all problems

Forums can be a great place to learn, share, and help....but are ruined when folks resort to insulting, rude, and condescending comments

And I do apologize if I came across as rude. That wasn’t my intention. But I feel strongly people should know what they are getting into before they enter the beta program. The agreement clearly says FSD can do the worst thing at the worst time. You have to be prepared for it all. It should be apparent that FSD is an incomplete product and it does not handle all situations. As a result, it should be no surprise that it doesn’t understand all (or many) signs.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The thing is no right turn on red signs are pretty common. What is the point of attempting right turns on red when that feature is not yet implemented? It's just going to generate huge amount of disengagement data to sort through. Why not ask for confirmation at right turns on red? You could even have a voice prompt asking the user if there is a no right turn on red sign, that way you could gather training data for no right turn on red signs.
I suspect the reason is that the customer version of FSD Beta is actually optimized for making viral videos and not gathering data...

 

[qdeathstar]

And I do apologize if I came across as rude. That wasn’t my intention. But I feel strongly people should know what they are getting into before they enter the beta program. The agreement clearly says FSD can do the worst thing at the worst time. You have to be prepared for it all. It should be apparent that FSD is an incomplete product and it does not handle all situations. As a result, it should be no surprise that it doesn’t understand all (or many) signs.

I 100 percent agree that beta testers should be informed and that people who CHOOSE to test a beta inform themselves. But the risks of allowing gp to beta test is that they DONT.

 

[haroldo]

But the risks of allowing gp to beta test is that they DONT.

Do you have anything to back to this up claim?
I clearly don’t know the majority of beta drivers, so I’m not capable of making such a broad assertion
Having communicated with 20-30?? testers through forums, etc., the general consensus I’ve come up with is most are extremely conscientious, aware of risks, and cautious. Of course, I don’t know how to assess those not online.
As driving the beta is like teaching a teenager to drive, I imagine most are super careful, paying very close attention to every possible threat, taking nothing for granted. I read all the release notes, and try to watch a few YouTube driving reviews of each update so I can learn what others are discovering about the changes
Simply put, while I generally try to drive defensively and conservatively, I’m significantly more careful and cautious when I turn on beta.
I can’t imagine anyone on the program acting otherwise.

 

[Jonas_CT]

Yesterday someone rear ended me. FSD went on no turn on red, I stopped it as soon as it started moving. The guy behind me saw my car starting to move, assumed I was going, checked that no cars were coming from the side, didn't have a second look before going through the red light and rear ended me. Luckily just some scratches and I'm not saying it's FSDs fault, just annoying.
I saw a presentation from A. Karpathy where he showed how they've been collecting all the no turn on red signs the fleet could find as they can look very different depending on placement and local rules, this was years ago so you'd think they would have implemented a "better safe than sorry" rule of just stopping when seeing a no turn on red sign.
Another thing, I read somewhere that FSD would recognize an imminent crash from behind and would actually move the car forward to soften the impact. Looking at the dashcam footage I don't see that this happened. My car moved after the impact, not before. Does anyone know if the moving away from the collision is a real feature or just a rumor?

 

[haroldo]

The right on red is such an easy fix, its amazing they haven’t resolved it yet.
Until the car is able to read the signs, the car should stop at red with blinker on. If driver knows right on red is permitted, they can manually click the directional stalk up, and car proceeds (similar to the way Autopilot asks for confirmation to change lanes).
If driver doesn’t confirm, car waits for green light.

 

[jabloomf1230]

A few things still need attention: roundabouts, no right turn on red, stopped school buses, railroad crossings and potholes.

 

[Supcom]

A few things still need attention: roundabouts, no right turn on red, stopped school buses, railroad crossings and potholes.

Add to the list, ignoring Do Not Enter signs.

 

[cobra]

Another thing, I read somewhere that FSD would recognize an imminent crash from behind and would actually move the car forward to soften the impact. Looking at the dashcam footage I don't see that this happened. My car moved after the impact, not before. Does anyone know if the moving away from the collision is a real feature or just a rumor?

I've been wondering this as well. I recall in the early days there were reports of model S cars accelerating in a couple cases to avoid and accident. I still see the option (something like 'obstacle aware acceleration'?) in the car. But I have not seen any recent reports of that happening (although I haven't looked hard.) I wonder if it's removed or not working in the current stacks.

 

[haroldo]

obstacle aware acceleration

That feature reduces acceleration into an obstacle, a wall, etc., it’s not designed to avoid an accident from the rear.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Collision Avoidance Assist and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

Just a guess but I doubt the car can prevent anything from the rear. The fisheye lens on the camera distorts the image (look at your license plate next time you’re in reverse). Without accurate video images (size, distance, etc.,) it’d be real tough to have the car take control. That’s probably why the screen visualization doesn’t include traffic from behind.
Again, just a guess

 

[Jonas_CT]

The right on red is such an easy fix, its amazing they haven’t resolved it yet.
Until the car is able to read the signs, the car should stop at red with blinker on. If driver knows right on red is permitted, they can manually click the directional stalk up, and car proceeds (similar to the way Autopilot asks for confirmation to change lanes).
If driver doesn’t confirm, car waits for green light.

Seriously , I'd be happy having to nudge it to go through a red light. Now it sometimes creeps so far out in the intersection that cars coming from the left are slowing down as it looks like I'm going

Just a guess but I doubt the car can prevent anything from the rear. The fisheye lens on the camera distorts the image (look at your license plate next time you’re in reverse). Without accurate video images (size, distance, etc.,) it’d be real tough to have the car take control. That’s probably why the screen visualization doesn’t include traffic from behind.
Again, just a guess

Right, the rear camera doesn't seem to have the greatest picture quality, but I'm pretty sure the FSD has a better quality image than what's displayed on your screen.
I do believe the visualizations actually show cars behind you standing at a red light so they seem to use it for some cases, but not for this crash scenario unfortunately.

 

[haroldo]

pretty sure the FSD has a better quality image than what's displayed on your screen.

But it’s still fisheye. Even if it was HD, there’s no way that can be trusted for FSD, IMHO

 

[nvx1977]

But it’s still fisheye. Even if it was HD, there’s no way that can be trusted for FSD, IMHO

fish-eye, pincushion, and barrel distortion correction is very trivial. the algorithms have been around for decades and isn't particularly computationally taxing. What's much harder is stitching together the video streams from all cameras, and Tesla has started to do that. I wouldn't blame any sort of lens distortion for why more things aren't supported by the rear camera. Tesla likely just hasn't prioritized it yet.

 

[sleepydoc]

I interpret a red right arrow to mean no turn on red. Otherwise they would have just used a solid red light. But lots of people here ignore the red arrow and go anyway. Likewise plenty of people ignore the no turn on red sign too But for the most part, if you're first in line and you respect the red arrow or the sign, people behind you won't honk.

I always treated it just like any other red light. Turns out I was wrong (at least in Minnesota)...

Humm. I turn right on a red arrow practically daily for years. Never really thought about it. Nor have I been stopped. Im pretty sure I’ve noticed the sheriff doing the same thing.

Wonder what the law really is in this regard?

MN Statute 169.06:
(iii) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal ... must stop ... and must remain standing until a permissive signal indication permitting the movement indicated by the red arrow is displayed, except as follows: when an official sign has been erected permitting a turn on a red arrow signal...

In all states in the US, right turn on red is legal unless the intersection is posted otherwise.

Nope - see above.

 

[DrDabbles]

so you'd think they would have implemented a "better safe than sorry" rule

Given the history of AP, Smart Summon, and now FSD development, combined with the FSD bugs I've filed with Tesla, I can tell you for certain that "better safe than sorry" is not their development strategy. It's "better show features than lose sales". FWIW, there's a no right on red at a highway offramp near me where my Model 3 either attempts to run the red, or attempts a right on red regardless of the presence of oncoming traffic from the side. Reproducible 100% of the time on every FSD release over the past year or so.

Be careful out there.

 

[haroldo]

my Model 3 ... attempts a right on red regardless of the presence of oncoming traffic

The car does not read No RIght On Red signs anywhere.
Driver must take control...would have been nice if they warned about this, since it was well known inside HQ, but I guess they were too busy working on fart sound enhancements.