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Noob option trading questions

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Thanks for starting this thread @OrthoSurg , I probably should have done it months ago.

Couple question on call execution:

1) Sold a 11/5 CC @ $1225 today. When that gets executed Friday, I assume Fidelity just does sells the shares right out of my IRA and it's pretty automatic?

2) I have some Jan2023 $1200 CC. These could be executed at any time, but what are the odds there do?

I'd be content to sit on them, look for a dip back to $1100 in the interim, and BTC way down the line. But if they're 20% likely to execute before year end....I'd wanna roll them up and out.
 
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Thanks for starting this thread @OrthoSurg , I probably should have done it months ago.

Couple question on call execution:

1) Sold a 11/5 CC @ $1225 today. When that gets executed Friday, I assume Fidelity just does sells the shares right out of my IRA and it's pretty automatic?

2) I have some Jan2023 $1200 CC. These could be executed at any time, but what are the odds there do?

I'd be content to sit on them, look for a dip back to $1100 in the interim, and BTC way down the line. But if they're 20% likely to execute before year end....I'd wanna roll them up and out.
Following these 2 excellent questions, this will be interesting for me as I have sold 2 26/11 CC @ 1325 last week and they are probably going to end ITM. Something I would have never expected with the SP in the 900$
 
Thanks for starting this thread @OrthoSurg , I probably should have done it months ago.

Couple question on call execution:

1) Sold a 11/5 CC @ $1225 today. When that gets executed Friday, I assume Fidelity just does sells the shares right out of my IRA and it's pretty automatic?

2) I have some Jan2023 $1200 CC. These could be executed at any time, but what are the odds there do?

I'd be content to sit on them, look for a dip back to $1100 in the interim, and BTC way down the line. But if they're 20% likely to execute before year end....I'd wanna roll them up and out.

1) Yes, it’s automatic.

2) Very unlikely to happen if there’s any time value left at all. Would have to be hundreds of dollars in the money with little time to expiration.

If it was exercised with time value left on it, they’d be doing you a favor (excluding tax considerations) because you could always sell the same option again and buy your 100 shares back and also get the time value back.
 
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If I had sold a 1200 CC last Friday like, I was thinking about doing, would it have been exercised when the price hit 1200 yesterday? Because I had the idea to have some margin sitting there waiting to buy a hundred shares when and if it hit the price I sold the CC at. Take the current situation where it drops 50 points after hours, if the option hadn't exercised then I would have just used margin to buy at the peak. Another example of no free lunch?
 
If I had sold a 1200 CC last Friday like, I was thinking about doing, would it have been exercised when the price hit 1200 yesterday? Because I had the idea to have some margin sitting there waiting to buy a hundred shares when and if it hit the price I sold the CC at. Take the current situation where it drops 50 points after hours, if the option hadn't exercised then I would have just used margin to buy at the peak. Another example of no free lunch?
You really need to spend some time and methodically read basics or watch the basic videos. I think you will find it very helpful.
 
I tried that. I found them extremely boring and hard to watch. I’m a terrible student with a small cranium and ADD. There’s a reason I almost flunked out of high school and didn’t go to college. Well, that and an addiction to a few substances. I guess I’ll just hodl and buy the dips and leave you smart/non-mentally lazy people alone. Or maybe watch the videos 😩.
 
I tried that. I found them extremely boring and hard to watch. I’m a terrible student with a small cranium and ADD. There’s a reason I almost flunked out of high school and didn’t go to college. Well, that and an addiction to a few substances. I guess I’ll just hodl and buy the dips and leave you smart/non-mentally lazy people alone. Or maybe watch the videos 😩.

The only thing you need to FULLY understand if you'd rather learn through experience is the precise maximum loss of any position and how time affects it. There are plenty of ways to do the things these folks talk about with cheap single contracts on strikes that have very little risk.

But you will also need to know the basics in an out. Otherwise there are far less leveraged ways to gamble away your money for entertainment!

In direct answer to your question above....almost certainly no. A $1200 CC sold last Friday with an expiration of this Friday 11/5 would almost certainly not have executed yesterday. It could, but it's extremely unlikely. Understanding that is one of the basics.
 
A $1200 CC sold last Friday with an expiration of this Friday 11/5 would almost certainly not have executed yesterday. It could, but it's extremely unlikely. Understanding that is one of the basics.

Just to illustrate this point:

If a 11/5 1200C was worth say around $5000 when the SP was 1208, the chance of someone exercising it on you is about the same as the chance of someone giving you $4200 for no reason.

No one would spend $120,000 and give up the $5000 call (so $120,000 for 100 shares), when they could sell their call for $5000 and buy shares at market price for $120,800 (so 115,800 for 100 shares).
 
Really loving this thread and the bumped glossary thread. Maybe we can apply some similar logic to the "main thread" after these roll for a while. It's a nice middle ground between tons of threads and one thread.

Anywho.....I have a noob statement rather than a question.

It was tough for me to rationalize why posters in the Wheel thread would be selling their weekly BPS(bull put spread) positions for 70-90% of maximum profit when the final 10-30% were a stone cold lock in just 36 hrs. Today's a perfect example.

We're in a dip to $115X and though the cost to close last week's BPS might have popped from $.26 to $.32, this is the moment you get optimal premium on next week's contracts. Always made perfect sense, but it's nice to see it play out in real time.

As I'm typing TSLA has recovered to $1170 and an 11/12 $800/$900 BPS is pricing with about $3.10 premium. Literally 5 minutes ago, that same spread might have gotten you $3.65. You've just spent $.06 of premium to gain $.55 by being ready to sell last week's contracts at the dip. And if we think our likely scenario is a $1200 close Friday, you threw away another $.26 of last week's premium to be able to set your position optimally for next week, which gains you almost certainly double that.

Unless you know for sure there's no trading to be done thru the end of the week, selling at 80-90% profit so rarely has downside that it's safe to just make it your system. This is obvious.....I just needed to see it and then type it out. :)
 
Oh wow I found the perfect thread for me. Unfortunately the options geniuses of this forum probably aren't interested in hanging out here. Here's my dumb question: so I had a LEAP that I bought a little over a year ago. 01.21.2022 expiration with a 600 strike. I kind of panic sold it on Monday for $40,000. I thought a 300% gain was good enough, and I thought I would just buy about ten shares with the proceeds and hang onto some cash. But now I will just hold on to the cash since the stock price kind of got away from me. Here's my question: I didn't have any cash on hand to exercise the option, but if the value of the option had gotten up to $60,000 could I have used the gains to exercise the option and add the 100 shares to my holdings? If so, that is a concept to buying LEAPS I hadn't thought of. It's probably the main idea now that I think of it.

Also, if I go to the option chain and I look at the Jan 21, 600 calls, is that the same price my LEAP would be worth right now, if I hadn't sold it? So far a $12,000 mistake if that's the case. Luckily I still have a few 2023 LEAPS that are doing pretty well, that I can console myself with.
Personally I would view this as a success rather than a $12,000 mistake. Most traders here have lost a fortune on options at one time or other; these trades can change on a dime. As one who has lost money before, IMHO any options gain is a success and worthy of celebration. You did well!

I also have learned to discipline myself not to continue looking at the options price after I have sold it. It’s fine to step back and analyze a trade. But the options price is going to keep moving one way or another after you’ve sold, and if you have made a profit and are wishing you hadn’t sold, that second guessing is a very emotional response that may cloud your future judgement on the next trade. Try to keep emotion out of it, otherwise you go into the next trade carrying that “$12,000 mistake” baggage.
 
Really loving this thread and the bumped glossary thread. Maybe we can apply some similar logic to the "main thread" after these roll for a while. It's a nice middle ground between tons of threads and one thread.

Anywho.....I have a noob statement rather than a question.

It was tough for me to rationalize why posters in the Wheel thread would be selling their weekly BPS(bull put spread) positions for 70-90% of maximum profit when the final 10-30% were a stone cold lock in just 36 hrs. Today's a perfect example.

We're in a dip to $115X and though the cost to close last week's BPS might have popped from $.26 to $.32, this is the moment you get optimal premium on next week's contracts. Always made perfect sense, but it's nice to see it play out in real time.

As I'm typing TSLA has recovered to $1170 and an 11/12 $800/$900 BPS is pricing with about $3.10 premium. Literally 5 minutes ago, that same spread might have gotten you $3.65. You've just spent $.06 of premium to gain $.55 by being ready to sell last week's contracts at the dip. And if we think our likely scenario is a $1200 close Friday, you threw away another $.26 of last week's premium to be able to set your position optimally for next week, which gains you almost certainly double that.

Unless you know for sure there's no trading to be done thru the end of the week, selling at 80-90% profit so rarely has downside that it's safe to just make it your system. This is obvious.....I just needed to see it and then type it out. :)
From the way I see it, correct me if I am wrong, it is more important to close vertical spread which are already up 80% when you set up trades closer ITM. The risk of a sudden move in stock price on unexpected news might get you to lose your gains and the premium you have collected because you trade not too far OTM. If you trade more than 30% far OTM, the risk of a trade going tits up within 36 hours is less than if you are 10% OTM.
 
From the way I see it, correct me if I am wrong, it is more important to close vertical spread which are already up 80% when you set up trades closer ITM. The risk of a sudden move in stock price on unexpected news might get you to lose your gains and the premium you have collected because you trade not too far OTM. If you trade more than 30% far OTM, the risk of a trade going tits up within 36 hours is less than if you are 10% OTM.
NOT-ADVICE

Definitely true (a 30% OTM position less likely to go ITM than the 10% OTM position). However risk is a function of two ideas - the likelihood that the event occurs (position goes ITM) and the impact when the event happens. Broadly speaking options (whether purchase or sell to open) go into the high likelihood / low impact, or the low likelihood / high impact categories, with these existing on a continuum in which we each optimize.

I like closing my spreads early and then waiting for a regression to open a new one. The early close takes the risk of a sudden and large reversal off the table. It also prepares me in case I get that sudden and large reversal for a new open at a highly desirable price.

The reopen is frequently the next day while waiting 2 or 3 days isn't out of the question. The idea is that I want to make my sale into strength (puts when shares are down, calls when shares are up). And the early close is almost always into weakness (shares up for puts, shares down for calls). So the good close and the good open rarely go together.


For me at least the idea is the same whether I'm close or far OTM, just that the further OTM is that much less likely for the event to happen.
 
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Seeing as the thread for noobs, I’d like to question a simplistic scenario:

What is the harm in selling a DOTM far dated put?
A $500p Jan/23 gives a $4k premium with an estimated $5k in BP.
Repeat every 2 months; once you have 3 / 4 positions, roll the oldest put out another 12-18 months.

With lots of management time, what major risk(s) do I need to look at in this strategy?
 
Seeing as the thread for noobs, I’d like to question a simplistic scenario:

What is the harm in selling a DOTM far dated put?
A $500p Jan/23 gives a $4k premium with an estimated $5k in BP.
Repeat every 2 months; once you have 3 / 4 positions, roll the oldest put out another 12-18 months.

With lots of management time, what major risk(s) do I need to look at in this strategy?
What is BP?
Each ties up $50k of margin/ cash, but you are making around 8% on it. Lots of room and time to adjust if needed.
 
Buying Power or Estimated Margin.
The $500 is just a number out of the air;
if I understand the related risks, I can tweak & scale accordingly.

7857CBC2-B208-4BB4-AA2E-16C6EB47245C.jpeg
 
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Seeing as the thread for noobs, I’d like to question a simplistic scenario:

What is the harm in selling a DOTM far dated put?
A $500p Jan/23 gives a $4k premium with an estimated $5k in BP.
Repeat every 2 months; once you have 3 / 4 positions, roll the oldest put out another 12-18 months.

With lots of management time, what major risk(s) do I need to look at in this strategy?
Every position has risks and rewards, costs and benefits. There's no such thing as free money :) If you ever think you've found it, asking questions is a good idea. If nothing else you can be confident that there are other bigger players, with more resources, that are looking for that free money and would have bought it all up.

In this particular case the primary limitation I see with a far DTE (days to expiration) position like this is that whatever margin or cash that is needed to back the position, it will be tied up for a long time. In this case, in theory, until Jan 2023 or about 14 months from now.

The other risk that I can see - that very low margin requirement is undoubtedly due to how far OTM you're at. $50/share margin for $38/share credit sounds like a pretty good deal. However if the shares start trading towards that $500 strike price then I would expect that margin requirement to be increasing. As one point of reference I sold some ~$1000 strike puts with a 1 or 2 week to expiration and needed $250/share margin for them. The closer to the money the position gets the more margin you'll need (up to $500/share - the strike on the option, or making it cash secured).

The benefit that I see with sort of approach is that we're in agreement that the shares are unlikely to revisit the $500 level, much less go below it. So it looks safe from that point of view. By selling very long dated options like this, you get some cash up front (positive cash flow is always nice) and you don't need to do any management of the position. You probably don't need to do anything more than you already do - keep an eye out on the strategy and execution by Tesla, and the occasional check on the share price. Weekly or even monthly share price updates is probably all you need. Thus low effort, low energy, with some money to spend up front.

For the rolling further out, I would think in terms of letting these options get much closer to expiration. The time decay on the option starts kicking in noticeably about 3 months to go, gets even faster at 1 month to go, and is really really fast the last week and last day. That time decay is where you earn (P/L) that income that you received up front. With a 14 month to expiration sort of option you mention I would think in terms of starting a new 12 to 14 month position every 2 months, but taking them (very close) to expiration for more like 6 or 7 positions.

Closing these positions with 3-5 months to go, I would expect that if the shares are trading at about the same price as they were when you opened, then you will have earned roughly $19 out of that $38. That's not bad but it took 3/4ths or more of the time to earn 1/2 or less of the premium. Your earnings will be heavily backloaded. Of course you can earn that premium faster if the shares are moving up.


My own view on this and it's not advice - I've sold 1 year puts and 2 year calls, and found that I didn't particularly care for either position. The problem was that the money was tied up for months to a year before I could finally resolve the positions favorably. I'll go out a month now but not further. That is also me with my objectives and my trading style, trading strategy, etc, and isn't something that you should adopt for yourself. It is input you can put into your own thinking, but we all make our own decisions and experience our own consequences.


Again NOT-ADVICE. Just things to think about as you make your own decisions.
 
Every position has risks and rewards, costs and benefits. There's no such thing as free money :) If you ever think you've found it, asking questions is a good idea. If nothing else you can be confident that there are other bigger players, with more resources, that are looking for that free money and would have bought it all up.

In this particular case the primary limitation I see with a far DTE (days to expiration) position like this is that whatever margin or cash that is needed to back the position, it will be tied up for a long time. In this case, in theory, until Jan 2023 or about 14 months from now.

The other risk that I can see - that very low margin requirement is undoubtedly due to how far OTM you're at. $50/share margin for $38/share credit sounds like a pretty good deal. However if the shares start trading towards that $500 strike price then I would expect that margin requirement to be increasing. As one point of reference I sold some ~$1000 strike puts with a 1 or 2 week to expiration and needed $250/share margin for them. The closer to the money the position gets the more margin you'll need (up to $500/share - the strike on the option, or making it cash secured).

The benefit that I see with sort of approach is that we're in agreement that the shares are unlikely to revisit the $500 level, much less go below it. So it looks safe from that point of view. By selling very long dated options like this, you get some cash up front (positive cash flow is always nice) and you don't need to do any management of the position. You probably don't need to do anything more than you already do - keep an eye out on the strategy and execution by Tesla, and the occasional check on the share price. Weekly or even monthly share price updates is probably all you need. Thus low effort, low energy, with some money to spend up front.

For the rolling further out, I would think in terms of letting these options get much closer to expiration. The time decay on the option starts kicking in noticeably about 3 months to go, gets even faster at 1 month to go, and is really really fast the last week and last day. That time decay is where you earn (P/L) that income that you received up front. With a 14 month to expiration sort of option you mention I would think in terms of starting a new 12 to 14 month position every 2 months, but taking them (very close) to expiration for more like 6 or 7 positions.

Closing these positions with 3-5 months to go, I would expect that if the shares are trading at about the same price as they were when you opened, then you will have earned roughly $19 out of that $38. That's not bad but it took 3/4ths or more of the time to earn 1/2 or less of the premium. Your earnings will be heavily backloaded. Of course you can earn that premium faster if the shares are moving up.


My own view on this and it's not advice - I've sold 1 year puts and 2 year calls, and found that I didn't particularly care for either position. The problem was that the money was tied up for months to a year before I could finally resolve the positions favorably. I'll go out a month now but not further. That is also me with my objectives and my trading style, trading strategy, etc, and isn't something that you should adopt for yourself. It is input you can put into your own thinking, but we all make our own decisions and experience our own consequences.


Again NOT-ADVICE. Just things to think about as you make your own decisions.
Thank you; appreciate the analysis.

My month needs will be modest, so I’d like to have a play such as this always running in the background. Other (staggered) tickers using similar analysis would be FB, AAPL & MSFT. Minimizing loss of capital is one of my higher priorities, while mechanizing as much as possible would be a goal. I will be trading from the Philippines, so the 12 hour difference will set some limitations.

Other shorter dated plays would always be on the front burner, pending market actions of course. Earnings, overreactions, 0DTE’s, and similar plays just above support levels are always on the table!
 
Continuing my previous scenario,
I extended my OTM far dated put option strategy to a number of stock;
the big picture looked more fantasy than real.

I am weak on the Greeks (on my ‘to do’ list) so I’m probably overlooking certain risks.
Any comments would be welcome…

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