Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Nope, it's not ready

Beta V

Author, Dad, Mentor, Technology Critic
Nov 8, 2017
171
94
Redmond, WA USA
I'm constantly testing my $2000-enhanced autodrive in the neighborhoods around my town. There are a couple of places where I know it will get confused every time as the vehicle suddenly lurches to the left (at 30 mph). In this stretch of the three-lane road, the middle lane morphs into a left-turn holding area. My Model X (Angel), does not know what to do. She's centering on the lane ahead but tries to enter the left-turn lane and then changes her mind in the span of about two seconds. As I have my hands on the wheel, my "oh-my-God" resistance to turning into oncoming traffic resistance throws Angel out of Autodrive. But it's not just there. Going up the same road yesterday, in what appeared to be a normal part of the road, Angel again has a momentary bout of depression and tries to kill us all by veering sharply to the left and back. My concern is also for the vehicles behind me. I could see one of them breaking the law and using their cellphone to report an impaired driver. Fortunately, he backed off.

Now I don't have HW3 yet, so Angel does not stop at red lights, or for flashing pedestrian crossings, or slow down for school zones, but I wonder if it would know to look left and right when crossing intersections on a green light? Does she have cameras that can look for drivers who ignore red lights? We have our share (okay, more than our share) of these morally-challenged drivers.

No, I don't think the AI I've seen so far is nearly that sophisticated. Having worked in the computer industry since the early '70s and having built my own systems for decades, I can appreciate the challenges. I even write books about AI and highly advanced androids but no, we're not there yet. Not even close.
 

Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,653
8,941
Palmdale, CA
Well. A lot to unpack here. If you are concerned about the safety of Autopilot when used outside of the user manual warnings, then just stop doing that. Many folks do test AP outside of the allowed use case (highways), but if you do, please be prepared for unexpected behavior and ready to take control of the car at any time. Tesla hasn’t released the version of software that can drive on city streets yet.

Here is one for you @Knightshade
 

Beta V

Author, Dad, Mentor, Technology Critic
Nov 8, 2017
171
94
Redmond, WA USA
Okay, understood. But didn't we just get a new and improved (with four quick-succession updates) to do just that? I guess not. And what did that $2000 pay for if not this?

But that said, while on the freeway in AutoDrive (the manual says that's supposed to be okay), I'm cruising along at 60 (the speed limit) when suddenly Angel thinks she's supposed to be going 45. The car behind me dodges to the right and flips me off as I jam my foot on the accelerator to get me back up to speed. A couple of seconds later, she's recovered her senses and wonders what I'm fussing about. During my last road trip (about 200 miles away), she did this three or four times.
 

Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,653
8,941
Palmdale, CA
But didn't we just get a new and improved (with four quick-succession updates) to do just that? I guess not. And what did that $2000 pay for if not this?

No city driving yet. To know what your $2000 paid for, we would need to know which package you bought. Was that the Basic AP package, or picking up the FSD upgrade to Enhanced AP during the March fire sale? (If it was the later, your $2000 hasn’t bought anything yet. If it was the former, city driving wasn’t part of basic AP)

Yes, phantom braking on highways is terrible and can be dangerous if you aren’t quick. I sometimes drive with my foot hovering over the accelerator. It gets better then worse then better again as software updates roll out. Auto lane change is the same way. It was terrible, then pretty rock solid, and now it is back to serving again occasionally. I assume you didn’t have the car during the early AP2 days, THAT was scary enough I turned AP off for 3 months even on the freeway.


Just remember the whole package is still in beta, treat every new update with caution. We can have philosophical discussions as to whether Tesla should be allowed to release safety critical software as Beta, but it IS what they are doing.
 

Beta V

Author, Dad, Mentor, Technology Critic
Nov 8, 2017
171
94
Redmond, WA USA
Thanks for the details. Yes, as I understand it, I bought the FSD upgrade. I was $6000, then $2000, then $6000, then $2000 (or was it 3K?) (when I bought it). Yes, I worked at Microsoft for 14 years. I know about mission-critical updates that broke every computer on the planet despite "exhaustive" testing. I'm really hesitant to use autodrive. I was probably crazy to do so when driving back from the airport a week ago at night in the rain but it did fine.

My other concern is when Angel decides to slow down, she doesn't always turn on her brake lights. Now THAT's scary too.
 

Green Pete

Active Member
Oct 8, 2016
1,187
6,156
Earth
I realize that we have all been conditioned to ignore terms and conditions for things but when you turned on autopilot you were required to accept some. And given that this is a software feature where you life is in the hands of a computer I think it’s important you take the time to understand it better than the iTunes T+C

Okay, understood. But didn't we just get a new and improved (with four quick-succession updates) to do just that? I guess not. And what did that $2000 pay for if not this?

But that said, while on the freeway in AutoDrive (the manual says that's supposed to be okay), I'm cruising along at 60 (the speed limit) when suddenly Angel thinks she's supposed to be going 45. The car behind me dodges to the right and flips me off as I jam my foot on the accelerator to get me back up to speed. A couple of seconds later, she's recovered her senses and wonders what I'm fussing about. During my last road trip (about 200 miles away), she did this three or four times.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
13,157
21,778
NC
Thanks for the details. Yes, as I understand it, I bought the FSD upgrade. I was $6000, then $2000, then $6000, then $2000 (or was it 3K?) (when I bought it). Yes, I worked at Microsoft for 14 years. I know about mission-critical updates that broke every computer on the planet despite "exhaustive" testing. I'm really hesitant to use autodrive. I was probably crazy to do so when driving back from the airport a week ago at night in the rain but it did fine.


You had EAP then. Adding FSD to that adds literally nothing right now- they both contain the same feature set. EAP is effectively "done" though as it's gotten everything it was promised, and future features will likely be for FSD cars only- plus you got the promise you'll be upgraded to HW3 once it matters (currently HW3 doesn't do anything beneficial)


Currently, EAP (and FSD) are only intended to be used on limited access highways (ie divided roads where all the traffic is going the same way, there is no cross-traffic, and people enter/exit via ramps instead of turn lanes and intersections)


Any complaints about it behaving poorly anywhere else is user error.

(that said- there's many other places it CAN operate surprisingly well, as long as you are paying close attention to the fact it's not intended to be used there and are extra-aware of the weird behavior it might exhibit as a result, and understand anything that goes wrong is your fault for using it outside its intended operational domain)




T
My other concern is when Angel decides to slow down, she doesn't always turn on her brake lights. Now THAT's scary too.

Not really.

If you take your foot off the gas and coast in a regular car it'll also slow down without turning on the brake lights.

The tesla will turn them on based on your rate of deceleration as appropriate.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: pilotSteve

Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,653
8,941
Palmdale, CA
My other concern is when Angel decides to slow down, she doesn't always turn on her brake lights. Now THAT's scary too.

The car turns the brake lights on when the deceleration rate increases enough. It acts like a manual transmission car downshifting in that regard. If you are in a area with lots of tailgaters, it might be prudent to switch regen to LOW so you have to use the brake pedal more like an ICE car.

Edit: regen low won’t affect AP behavior though. You just have to hope the guy behind you isn’t texting.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
13,157
21,778
NC
This whole vision-based FSD thing is a joke.

Elon says Tesla's approach is vision-based, but Nav on AP uses highway exit and interchange mapping from Map Box? To me, that's the same as using lidar or HD maps.



...what?

It's using maps for navigation

How does vision tell you that you need exit 76 to get to your destination? (assuming your literal destination isn't written on the exit sign)

That's not, in any way, anything at all like relying on lidar for obstacle detection.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Green Pete

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,999
2,621
Seattle
Um .. you DO realize that it’s not designed for off-highway driving right? HW3 has nothing to do with it, Tesla have plans for street driving but have NOT released any software to support this yet. You should spend some time reading the user manual sections on Autopilot, as expecting it to drive on city streets may put you and others in danger.
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: SW2Fiddler

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,999
2,621
Seattle
Companies right now are using lidar mostly for localization.

Wait .. what?

Lidar is used to provide distance information on objects around the car based on time-of-flight of the laser pulses, and in some cases relative velocity based on Doppler shift. This is then combined with camera and other sensor data to build a 3D map of the objects around them car and their relative movement. Tesla is attempting to do without Lidar and use cameras only, which while technically possible (humans do it, after all), is a challenge/bet. If they succeed, they are ahead of the rest of the industry (since Lidar is still $$$), if they fail, well we are all in trouble as Tesla owners.
 

powertoold

Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
3,021
6,509
USA
a neural net

Totally different in implementation and structure vs ML NNs.

Also, I stand by my statement that companies mostly use lidar for localization. It's a huge part of their self driving implementation. The lidar is used to accurately map the surroundings and then later used to localize the car in their HD maps.

Tesla is also using maps for nav on AP for knowing which lane to be in for exiting and changing highways. Sometimes these lane maps are incorrect, leading to incorrect navigation behavior. The maps are lower quality but still not truly vision-based. Humans can consistently figure out which lane to be in through vision.

I don't consider Tesla to be vision-based until they can navigate without using something like MapBox. I'm fine with using maps for navigation, which is just like humans do it.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,999
2,621
Seattle
Totally different in implementation and structure vs ML NNs.

Also, I stand by my statement that companies mostly use lidar for localization. It's a huge part of their self driving implementation. The lidar is used to accurately map the surroundings and then later used to localize the car in their HD maps.

Tesla is also using maps for nav on AP for knowing which lane to be in for exiting and changing highways. Sometimes these lane maps are incorrect, leading to incorrect navigation behavior. The maps are lower quality but still not truly vision-based. Humans can consistently figure out which lane to be in through vision.

I don't consider Tesla to be vision-based until they can navigate without using something like MapBox. I'm fine with using maps for navigation, which is just like humans do it.

All efforts at FSD (Google, Tesla etc) use a combination of environmental sensors and GPS based maps, and blend this data along with goal-seeking rule systems to attempt to reach a destination. I fail to follow your argument about what humans do, what the car does, and what the car should (in your opinion) do, or why?
 

powertoold

Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
3,021
6,509
USA
I fail to follow your argument about what humans do, what the car does, and what the car should (in your opinion) do, or why?

Pretty easy to follow my point.

Elon says lidar is a crutch. Companies use lidar to accurately place a vehicle in its environment, which has been HD mapped.

Elon wants vision-based approach to localize the car, as humans do. However, as of now, Nav on AP still depends on open sourced lane map data to localize itself. It can't actually figure out what lane it needs to be in to exit / interchange and purely relies on the accuracy of the open sourced lane maps.

These open source lane maps are a crutch (and represent a technology local maximum, as Elon likes to avoid), used to localize the vehicle like lidar. Perhaps Tesla will be less dependent on them in the future, but I don't see how they can achieve FSD within the next year and completely revamp their NAV on AP implementation.

You can simply tell a human to take the next exit, and they'll understand what needs to be done. Right now, the Tesla auto pilot system can't do that.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,999
2,621
Seattle
Pretty easy to follow my point.

Elon says lidar is a crutch. Companies use lidar to accurately place a vehicle in its environment, which has been HD mapped.

Elon wants vision-based approach to localize the car, as humans do. However, as of now, Nav on AP still depends on open sourced lane map data to localize itself. It can't actually figure out what lane it needs to be in to exit / interchange and purely relies on the accuracy of the open sourced lane maps.

These open source lane maps are a crutch (and represent a technology local maximum, as Elon likes to avoid), used to localize the vehicle like lidar. Perhaps Tesla will be less dependent on them in the future, but I don't see how they can achieve FSD within the next year and completely revamp their NAV on AP implementation.

You can simply tell a human to take the next exit, and they'll understand what needs to be done. Right now, the Tesla auto pilot system can't do that.

Actually, your point is far from clear because you seem to be muddling several things together, and essentially saying NOA doesnt work because you dont like HOW it works, which I find a curious argument. Why should it drive exactly the same way as humans (hardly a gold standard for safe driving)?

And how do you know what AP is doing internally? Do you have any documentation on AP internals, algorithms or heuristics? I've watched AP carefully and one thing I am certain of is that while the maps tell it where to expect to turn off, it ultimately uses the lane lines and cameras to actually navigate its path.
 

kqnjml

Member
Sep 22, 2018
122
55
San Diego
I have a 2019 MX Raven HW3,AP,and FSD.
The OP’s description is spot on and the current software is not safe for AP city driving. I’ve tried many times using AP on city roads and had to take over numerous times as well as pressing on my gas pedal due to sudden decrease in speed. The NOA is also very sensitive and brake every time it detects a car creeping up in my blind spot. Unless the software update is significant city driving on AP is not safe. I’m hopeful Tesla will release a game changer version soon but will use with extreme caution.
 
  • Like
Reactions: boonedocks

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,999
2,621
Seattle
I have a 2019 MX Raven HW3,AP,and FSD.
The OP’s description is spot on and the current software is not safe for AP city driving. I’ve tried many times using AP on city roads and had to take over numerous times as well as pressing on my gas pedal due to sudden decrease in speed. The NOA is also very sensitive and brake every time it detects a car creeping up in my blind spot. Unless the software update is significant city driving on AP is not safe. I’m hopeful Tesla will release a game changer version soon but will use with extreme caution.

That's because its intended for highway driving only, as it says in the manual. Where did you get the idea it was supposed to work in city driving?
 
  • Like
Reactions: SW2Fiddler

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top