Vendor NorCal - MPP Is Back In Cali! Thursday Aug 30 @ 8pm

[MountainPass]

Thanks to everyone who came out! It was a great time and I really enjoyed chatting with all of you. For any I didn't get to talk with I'm very sorry More of you came out then we were expecting!

@JeffC - I think the range hit was a lot more than 5%. I believe the loss is closer to 15-20% with low offset, open spoke wide wheels with performance tires. The PS4S is a very low rolling resistance tire for its class, but we were seeing close to 190wh/km on the highway at speeds around 75mph. My car with the 18" aero's and the OE tires consumes around 150-155wh/km at a similar speed.

 

[gilscales]

Thanks to everyone who came out! It was a great time and I really enjoyed chatting with all of you. For any I didn't get to talk with I'm very sorry More of you came out then we were expecting!

@JeffC - I think the range hit was a lot more than 5%. I believe the loss is closer to 15-20% with low offset, open spoke wide wheels with performance tires. The PS4S is a very low rolling resistance tire for its class, but we were seeing close to 190wh/km on the highway at speeds around 75mph. My car with the 18" aero's and the OE tires consumes around 150-155wh/km at a similar speed.

WOW! that comes out to about a 25% hit on the range, your 155-160wh/km is 241-249wh/mi, I have 19" sport and at that speed I am only 255-260wh/mi or only about 5% more than you are getting, 190wh/km is over 305wh/mi so HUGE difference! I am curious are you sure about those numbers as low temperatures are really hard on range, just wondering if that could be the case? Also many people with the stock aero's here get 220-230 so maybe it won't be that bad?

 

[JeffC]

To follow up on my own question, Sasha confirmed on the Model 3 Owners Club forum that 9.5 inch wide wheels, +35 mm offset with 275 width tires front and back fits without rubbing. He said 255 or 265 also works as a slightly less aggressive option. I will probably standardize on 9.5, 35 offset, 265, as the 265 is nearer the stock tire diameter than 255. Reference:

That $5k Performance Upgrade option, Part Deux

 

[JeffC]

@JeffC - I think the range hit was a lot more than 5%. I believe the loss is closer to 15-20% with low offset, open spoke wide wheels with performance tires. The PS4S is a very low rolling resistance tire for its class, but we were seeing close to 190wh/km on the highway at speeds around 75mph. My car with the 18" aero's and the OE tires consumes around 150-155wh/km at a similar speed.

Thanks much Sasha. Yikes! My guess is that it's mostly aerodynamics causing the difference. The wider wheel/tire has more frontal area, but the airflow over the face of the wheel must be significantly worse.

Could be disrupting the carefully designed airflow around the side of the car, and would need to be pretty significant to make that much of a difference. OTOH, even small changes on a very low drag car like Model 3 can make a big difference in drag. Maybe time to look into moon disc wheel covers again.

Really would hate to lose that much range for street driving, but also don't want to have multiple sets of wheels.

 

[JeffC]

To follow up on my own question, Sasha confirmed on the Model 3 Owners Club forum that 9.5 inch wide wheels, +35 mm offset with 275 width tires front and back fits without rubbing.

Correction, that should read 10 inch wide +35 offset with 275.

I'm leaning towards 18x9.5 +35 wheels with 265/40 tires.

 

[MountainPass]

Update since we just completed another road trip. We saw an average of 130 wh/km with our Aero 18's inflated to 47psi. The difference in efficiency from just wheels and tires is staggering.

 

[Stew]

I agree that relatively small changes to tires can make a significant difference in efficiency based on experience with my M3. So far I have seen the following stats on my LR RWD with 19” wheels:

. 3200 mi driven on OE Contis 235-40r19, 42 psi: avg 243 Wh/mi

. 630 mi driven on MPS4S 245-40r19, 42 psi: avg 268 Wh/mi

So an efficiency hit of 10.2%.

I now have 15mm spacers on the rear two wheels and am going to see if I can detect any efficiency changes (probably for the worse... ah well

 

[gilscales]

I agree that relatively small changes to tires can make a significant difference in efficiency based on experience with my M3. So far I have seen the following stats on my LR RWD with 19” wheels:

. 3200 mi driven on OE Contis 235-40r19, 42 psi: avg 243 Wh/mi

. 630 mi driven on MPS4S 245-40r19, 42 psi: avg 268 Wh/mi

So an efficiency hit of 10.2%.

I now have 15mm spacers on the rear two wheels and am going to see if I can detect any efficiency changes (probably for the worse... ah well

But how much better is the handling with this tire? this is the exact tire and size I want to use so am very interested in your opinion.

 

[JeffC]

But how much better is the handling with this tire? this is the exact tire and size I want to use so am very interested in your opinion.

Depends on what we mean by better handling. By all accounts the Pilot Sport 4S is one of the best performing and feeling fully street-oriented performance tires available. It's probably going to perform and feel better than other tires of similar size due to its design, construction and materials.

In addition to performing very well, and being very predictable and linear near the limits, I found it's comfort and noise to also be excellent on the Model 3 Performance with the Performance Upgrade option. An excellent tire all around.

Here is a performance tire comparison from Tire Rack, whom I trust a lot since they are one of the largest aftermarket wheel and tire sellers in the world and since they cater to racers.:


https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=223

June 9, 2017

Tires Tested
Continental ExtremeContact Sport (Max Performance Summer, 245/40R18 97Y)

• What We Liked: Responsive steering and very strong wet traction.
• What We'd Improve: Road manners aren't as refined as the other tires in this test.
• Conclusion: Continental has really stepped up their Max Performance Summer game with this one.

Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (Max Performance Summer 245/40R18 (93Y))

• What We Liked: Does everything asked of it at a very high level.
• What We'd Improve: Nothing.
• Conclusion: We are genuinely impressed.

Pirelli P Zero (PZ4) (Max Performance Summer 245/40R18 (97Y))

• What We Liked: Refined ride and noise quality and a balanced performance on the track.
• What We'd Improve: Wet performance isn't quite up to the level of the latest Max Performance Summer tires.
• Conclusion: A great choice for your high-performance, luxury automobile.

Vehicles Used
2017 BMW F36 430i Gran Coupe


Please see the full review at the link above




(That BMW is a very relevant car vs Model 3; arguably a direct competitor for Model 3 Performance. BMW M3 and M4 are also.)

(NOTE: THE CONTINENTAL TIRE ABOVE IS NOT THE SAME AS THE TESLA FACTORY CONTINENTAL ON THE 19 INCH WHEELS! That is apparently the less performance oriented Continental ProContact RX.)

 

[Stew]

But how much better is the handling with this tire? this is the exact tire and size I want to use so am very interested in your opinion.

A few points related to the tire change....

1. The reason I switched to the MPS4S for my M3 is that my previous car (alas, the ill-fated VW Jetta TDI that I loved, with extensive re-programming to both the engine and tranny, lowering springs and third-party shocks, aftermarket wheels, etc ... ) also started life with OE Conti Pro Contact tires. These would squeal and the car would start to "slide" whenever I took corners and off-ramps at high speed for fun. I decided on the Michelins after reading reviews, etc. Taking those same curves with the new tires eliminated the squealing and sliding, with the car stuck to the road better and better communication of the road itself, if that makes sense. The Michelins also had a slightly softer road "feel" during regular highway driving, which I'm sure was due to the fact that are made of softer compound than the Contis. So, after driving my M3 around for a while, I decided to make the same switch.

2. I changed size from 235 to 245 purely for aesthetic reasons. I am happy with the subtle aesthetic change (especially when coupled with the Blox spacers). It also gave me another 4mm of sidewall, which may also make the road feel slightly softer than if I had gotten the 235 Michelins. No issues with rubbing when using the 245s.

3. The OE Contis have that foam liner which is supposed to dampen some tire resonances. The Michelin's don't have that feature. I would say that the quietness of the tires are comparable in terms of SPL, but with the Michelin's displaying a tad bit of "hollow resonance" sound at highway speeds which the Contis did not have.... I noticed that sound for about the first 10-15 min of driving then promptly got used to it... and my wife also didn't notice it even after I pointed it out to her. YMMV of course if you are sensitive to that (very mild) resonance sound.

Good luck in your choice! Let me know if I can help further.

 

[Stew]

@ JeffC - thanks for posting that Tire Rack link... I also used that info to help with my choice originally....

 

[gilscales]

A few points related to the tire change....

1. The reason I switched to the MPS4S for my M3 is that my previous car (alas, the ill-fated VW Jetta TDI that I loved, with extensive re-programming to both the engine and tranny, lowering springs and third-party shocks, aftermarket wheels, etc ... ) also started life with OE Conti Pro Contact tires. These would squeal and the car would start to "slide" whenever I took corners and off-ramps at high speed for fun. I decided on the Michelins after reading reviews, etc. Taking those same curves with the new tires eliminated the squealing and sliding, with the car stuck to the road better and better communication of the road itself, if that makes sense. The Michelins also had a slightly softer road "feel" during regular highway driving, which I'm sure was due to the fact that are made of softer compound than the Contis. So, after driving my M3 around for a while, I decided to make the same switch.

2. I changed size from 235 to 245 purely for aesthetic reasons. I am happy with the subtle aesthetic change (especially when coupled with the Blox spacers). It also gave me another 4mm of sidewall, which may also make the road feel slightly softer than if I had gotten the 235 Michelins. No issues with rubbing when using the 245s.

3. The OE Contis have that foam liner which is supposed to dampen some tire resonances. The Michelin's don't have that feature. I would say that the quietness of the tires are comparable in terms of SPL, but with the Michelin's displaying a tad bit of "hollow resonance" sound at highway speeds which the Contis did not have.... I noticed that sound for about the first 10-15 min of driving then promptly got used to it... and my wife also didn't notice it even after I pointed it out to her. YMMV of course if you are sensitive to that (very mild) resonance sound.

Good luck in your choice! Let me know if I can help further.

Wow what a coincidence, my previous car was a 2013 Passat tdi SEL with OZ wheels, 245/45/18 Michelin’s ( but as3+, not the ps4’s) ST coilovers, larger sway bars and Malone stage 2 with the tranny Re program as well, I really liked the car a lot but when they were offering 25k for it with 100k miles plus I had time to drive it and wait for what I really wanted (the 3) then it was a no brainer for me to sell it back to VW

I noticed a big difference in handling stepping up slightly in tire size as the load rating went up quite a bit so turn In improved a lot, comfort a bit as well from the little extra sidewall

I was just curious as to you perception of the handling improvement you gained on this switch because I’m looking at the exact same thing

Thanks for your reply

 

[Stew]

Wow what a coincidence, my previous car was a 2013 Passat tdi SEL with OZ wheels, 245/45/18 Michelin’s ( but as3+, not the ps4’s) ST coilovers, larger sway bars and Malone stage 2 with the tranny Re program as well, I really liked the car a lot but when they were offering 25k for it with 100k miles plus I had time to drive it and wait for what I really wanted (the 3) then it was a no brainer for me to sell it back to VW

I noticed a big difference in handling stepping up slightly in tire size as the load rating went up quite a bit so turn In improved a lot, comfort a bit as well from the little extra sidewall

I was just curious as to you perception of the handling improvement you gained on this switch because I’m looking at the exact same thing

Thanks for your reply

Indeed what a coincidence! 2013 for me, too. Yes, Malone stage 2 for me, too haha - programming the tranny at the car meetup was a piece of cake, but for the engine programming, we had to remove the CPU module from the car, and physically pry off the top metal cover (sealed to the plastic body with goo) without damaging the PCB inside or else I was totally hosed... it was hair-raising, I tell you. Then, we had to contact two particular tiny metal pads on the PCB board with O-scope style probes and hold them steady by hand (I held them) while a PC re-flashed the engine module with the Stage 2. It took a few tries to get it right. Then, we re-sealed the top plate with some fresh goo and re-inserted the module back into the engine. The car started perfectly and confirmed the flash! Man - I was sweating the whole time but had good confidence in the guy doing it for me....

Anyways, I also sold the Jetta back to VW and got about the same amount you did. I was sad to lose the car, but as you say I also drove mine a lot and got a lot of enjoyment.... I took some of that cash and bought a used '13 Chevy Volt to tie me over until the M3 was ready . The Chevy was a solid car for who it was designed for, and I'd recommend it to others if that's what they're looking for.... but, man, the M3 is light years ahead and I am happier now than even with the TDI...