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North Carolina EV Road Use Tax

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No problem at all. But, the problem is not economics, it's fraud, corruption and waste.

It is almost always incorrect and counterproductive to speak about "THE" problem, since there is rarely a single problem of which to speak, or even a single cause that represents the majority of the problem. In this case, there are at least a few "problems" we can discuss, and dismissing any one of them as "not the problem" is simply wrong.

The first set of problems or challenges involves creating new infrastructure where required, maintaining the existing infrastructure, keeping it clean and usable, creating and maintaining signals and signs, and so on. Those are not being addressed well enough in the USA, and the infrastructure has decayed to a critical condition where restorative maintenance is vital. The second set of issues revolve around traffic and congestion management, and the third set are about raising the funds required to pay for all this. I may have missed some, too.

Please note that every single one of those problems is an essential part of the system. None of them can be ignored: any single issue, if left to rot, is enough to ruin the system. And they ALL have both economic and political components in both the problem and the solution.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible... but not simpler than that." --Albert Einstein
 
I had no idea there was tax included in gasoline for road infrastructure maintenance. I thought the tolls (for highways), and traffic violation tickets etc. (for city roads) was the way people directly contributed to road infrastructure. I am not sure why there have to be two different ways to contribute, especially since contribution through gas and through tolls and other existing means doesn't make the system much more perfect than having only one of these systems.

I understand having one fixed and one variable component, but gas and tolls seem to fall under the same category.
 
You're welcome to drive your vehicle on your private property and avoid all taxes and registration. If you want to drive it on public roads, you pay for your share of the costs. No special privileges for driving an EV.

1) I'm paying tax on my electricity that ICE owners are not paying
2) Cyclists, joggers, and pedestrians don't have to pay for their share of the costs. It would be as ludicrous as this tax, which is not based on the weight or profile of the vehicle.

Use tax is the way to go. Tolls implemented by transponder, then take the road taxes out of gas prices.
 
This is just anti-EV garbage.

I'd accept an annual fee of $100 for all car owners.

Do you honestly think legislatures think EVs are evil? Do you think they are paid off by oil companies? - Note NC has no oil so I suspect no significant oil lobby but I could be wrong.

Do you think legislatures are trying to counter the federal government regarding EV's? - Possible.

Does NC have a crap load of EV charging stations all around the capital? Yes.

Money is power and legislatures want more of both.

Colorado has a EV fee - $50. It also has a $6k tax credit. This is clearly a EV friendly state but has a annual road fee. Please explain their EV annual fee as "just anti-EV garbage".
 
Colorado has a EV fee - $50. It also has a $6k tax credit. This is clearly a EV friendly state but has a annual road fee. Please explain their EV annual fee as "just anti-EV garbage".

When NC offers me something tangible (like a 6K credit) then I'll agree with you. I took plenty of crap for this from the locals when I started driving my LEAF way before this law went into effect. It's politicians pandering to the masses to rally against the "rich people that drive electric cars".

I agree that there is good & developing charging infrastructure in downtown Raleigh that right now is free. People grouse about that, too. I'd much rather pay for my public charging & go to a mileage-based road tax then pay some knee-jerk " in your face, tree-hugger" arbitrary tax.

WRT mileage-based taxes not being fair, big rigs, which tear up the roads the most, are already subject to electronic monitoring, weigh stations and swindle sheets to make sure they pay their fair share. Mileage-based for the rest of vehicles ought to be sufficient.
 
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As I've said in other posts, the amount of combined road taxes (federal and state) that I pay is less than $20/mo. Because I believe a well-maintained road network is an essential part of our infrastructure, I'll not complain about paying up to a comparable part of that amount if I start driving a BEV. Given that I *won't* be paying the TEN TIMES that amount for the gasoline and I'll be saving THOUSANDS on maintenance, it'll be easy to swallow an EV tax.

Unless you believe that you SHOULD be driving for free and adding your wear and tear on the road without consequence, then I don't really know what to say.
 
1)... Use tax is the way to go. Tolls implemented by transponder, then take the road taxes out of gas prices.

No way is this acceptable to me given government (at many levels) misuse of personal data. Want to see all your travel information (speed exceedence, where you stopped overnight, etc.) available to a lawyer suing you (divorce, taxing income because you were in a state like NY for brief period of time and did not file) etc etc.

In short this is why I just say "I'm OK paying $100 (or whatever flat fee)" to contribute to road maintenance and to KEEP MY PRIVACY.
 
No way is this acceptable to me given government (at many levels) misuse of personal data. Want to see all your travel information (speed exceedence, where you stopped overnight, etc.) available to a lawyer suing you (divorce, taxing income because you were in a state like NY for brief period of time and did not file) etc etc.

In short this is why I just say "I'm OK paying $100 (or whatever flat fee)" to contribute to road maintenance and to KEEP MY PRIVACY.

Although I am one of the biggest privacy advocates in the world and agree with you, unfortunately that ship has already sailed. In your state (Washington), police cars are being outfitted with cameras that take pictures of the license plates of every car they pass and OCR them. Some police just sit in the median of highways and collect the data. There are traffic cameras everywhere, and nothing is stopping the WA gov't from keeping these data. The 520 bridge in Seattle uses transponders and license plate cameras. Have you read "The Transparent Society" by David Brin? Really ahead of its time.

Not to mention that Tesla has all of these data and is more subject to subpoena than the municipalities!
 
No problem at all. But, the problem is not economics, it's fraud, corruption and waste.

Unfortunately, that's a far more complicated lecture that falls on deaf ears.
It's more than that, Steve. The incentives and constraints on business drive efficiencies. Not so for government management. Even "completely uncorrupted" government management would be less efficient than business, because of these fundamental differences.
 
It's more than that, Steve. The incentives and constraints on business drive efficiencies. Not so for government management. Even "completely uncorrupted" government management would be less efficient than business, because of these fundamental differences.

Wrong. Check out health insurance companies and pretend charities. They are both inefficient because they increase profits by lowering efficiency. Dealership and alcohol wholesalers lower market efficiency by using lobbying to rent-seek. Oligopologies lower efficiency by using market control and ignorance to improve their efficiency at the expense of overall efficiency.
 
Wrong. Check out health insurance companies and pretend charities. They are both inefficient because they increase profits by lowering efficiency. Dealership and alcohol wholesalers lower market efficiency by using lobbying to rent-seek. Oligopologies lower efficiency by using market control and ignorance to improve their efficiency at the expense of overall efficiency.
Do you not see how your lobbying example further proves my point -- govt involvement.

I think you misunderstood my point generally as well. An uncorrupted govt vs an uncorrupted business -- only the latter is in any way designed to be efficient.
 
Do you not see how your lobbying example further proves my point -- govt involvement.

I think you misunderstood my point generally as well. An uncorrupted govt vs an uncorrupted business -- only the latter is in any way designed to be efficient.

No, it doesn't prove your point. It shows that businesses don't focus on efficiency, they focus on profit. Sometimes the efficiency and profit go hand in hand but not always (and I gave a few examples).

I didn't misunderstand. I think your view is naive. An uncorrupted government would be efficient because it would truly be accountable and that would require efficiency. An uncorrupted business would only be efficient if maximum efficiency led to maximum profit and that is not always the case. The profit motive is inherently destructive: maximum profit comes from obtaining a monopoly and then maximally exploiting customers. Although an uncorrupt destructive monopolist would eventually be replaced, during its period of control it would do still be able to do a large amount of damage, and, besides, it can maintain an effective monopoly with temporary competitive behavior.

Back on topic: the fixed-fee EV use tax is lazy politicking. It'll be returning negligible amounts of money from something that nobody would dare do for all vehicles for exactly the reason that it's being introduced. :rolleyes:
 
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Talk about OT. Interesting how this turned into a debate about capitalism...

Money (and your name says it all) - you have to realize that your views are anti-capitalistic (and minority). I would like you to imagine a world without capitalism. There is zero chance you would be driving a Tesla without capitalism.

All this talk is wildly theoretical. A government can't be "uncorrupt" because there are humans involved.....
 
Talk about OT. Interesting how this turned into a debate about capitalism...

Money (and your name says it all) - you have to realize that your views are anti-capitalistic (and minority). I would like you to imagine a world without capitalism. There is zero chance you would be driving a Tesla without capitalism.

All this talk is wildly theoretical. A government can't be "uncorrupt" because there are humans involved.....

... and the same is true of business. My views are not anti-capitalist, they are anti-pure-capitalist. I characterize myself as a utilitarian. I expressed my opinion in response to brianman's business-legs-good-government-legs-bad post, with which I disagreed. I think that blind faith that either business or government will deliver efficiency is naive, because, business does not have efficiency as a goal, although it does seek cost-efficiency in search of profit, while government theoretically should (in contrast to what brianman posted) have efficiency as a goal, but in reality usually doesn't because of self-interest and complacency.

As for my alias, I use it across multiple sites and it started with priuschat.com on why I bought my Prius, being based on support for energy efficiency, and bundles in ironic comment both on my own personal, er, fiscal conservatism, and on performance-obsessed automotive journalists who approach hybrids and plug-ins as a TCO exercise. I don't own a Tesla, although I do now own a Volt.

Without government intervention I don't think Tesla would even exist and even if it did I certainly wouldn't be posting on a Internet forum about it.