Not getting enough miles

[gnuarm]

One thing I am pretty confident of is that the growth of the Supercharging network was delayed during much of this past year while the company was struggling to make a profit. Some time ago the expansion of the Supercharging network was announced and the map updated with many new installations with anticipated dates. There are a huge percentage of pins in the map slated for completion in 2018 that won't happen until a later date.

The original goal of Supercharging was to provide a charging solution for trips. With the new expansion they announced a new direction which also included the intent to provide local charging for urban areas. I just found out they even have new "urban" chargers which I assume is intended for local use. So clearly Elon and Tesla have figured out they need a lot more charging for various reasons. I don't get why so many here disagree with Tesla. The problem Tesla will have is delivering on their intent.

 

[TexasEV]

One thing I am pretty confident of is that the growth of the Supercharging network was delayed during much of this past year while the company was struggling to make a profit. Some time ago the expansion of the Supercharging network was announced and the map updated with many new installations with anticipated dates. There are a huge percentage of pins in the map slated for completion in 2018 that won't happen until a later date.

As has been true every year since the first map of planned supercharger sites was published in 2013. History didn’t start the day you bought your Tesla. There is lots of info you may find interesting if you take the time to read though older posts on this site. The “coming soon” map has always been more aspirational than informational.

 

[Rocky_H]

One thing I am pretty confident of is that the growth of the Supercharging network was delayed during much of this past year while the company was struggling to make a profit. Some time ago the expansion of the Supercharging network was announced and the map updated with many new installations with anticipated dates. There are a huge percentage of pins in the map slated for completion in 2018 that won't happen until a later date.

Well, you're projecting what you think is the reason by the events you saw of them missing their Supercharger projections for 2018. Well, you're a bit newer to this, so guess what?
That's also exactly what happened in 2017.
...and in 2016
...and in 2015
...and in 2014
They have always overstated their planned goals for Supercharger expansion. They do a lot, but never up to the schedule they hoped for.

 

[gnuarm]

Well, you're projecting what you think is the reason by the events you saw of them missing their Supercharger projections for 2018. Well, you're a bit newer to this, so guess what?
That's also exactly what happened in 2017.
...and in 2016
...and in 2015
...and in 2014
They have always overstated their planned goals for Supercharger expansion. They do a lot, but never up to the schedule they hoped for.

You post a lot of incomplete information and typically don't understand what I post. I said there are a huge percentage of predicted installations that didn't happen in 2018. You respond that they didn't install every Supercharger expected in other years. Do you not see the difference in the two statements?

In a similar manner Tesla ran into trouble with servicing. People will say, "of course, they shipped a lot more cars!" But they actually shipped fewer cars than they expected and should have planned for. So if they simply failed to ramp up service fast enough it was a really huge failure since they only needed a fraction of what they should have been shooting for and didn't even make that. Instead I suspect they consciously pulled resources from non-essential areas like service and Supercharger construction as part of the effort to become profitable. There was an awful lot riding not only on making a profit, but how much profit was made. So every penny counted.

 

[Rocky_H]

I said there are a huge percentage of predicted installations that didn't happen in 2018. You respond that they didn't install every Supercharger expected in other years. Do you not see the difference in the two statements?

And now you're being totally dishonest about what I said. I said the exact same thing happened in those previous years, and I meant it. It was a huge amount in those previous years, just like the year you are talking about, not just one or two not completed.

In a similar manner Tesla ran into trouble with servicing.

OK, yes, that was something new. They were not proactively upscaling service ahead of time as fast as they should have in some areas. However, I have noticed something relevant to this. I've been seeing both Tesla forums over this past year, and you know what I have noticed? Tons of new people are filling up normally useful service time in person and on the phone with these kinds of garbage, B.S. time-wasting meaningless things. Tesla is being overwhelmed with this nonsense. Here are lots of real examples:

"My car only charged to 309 miles. It's supposed to be 310 miles!!!! I think my battery is defective."
(I totally wish I was making that up, but here it is.)
Charging to 100% - Range | Tesla

"I drove 100 miles, and the rated range decreased by 120 miles!!! I was only driving highway speed. I think there's a problem with my car. I've set up a service appointment." (Dozens of these)

"I can't get Android Auto to work."

"My car with high performance summer tires slid down my steeply sloped driveway because of ice. This is a serious safety problem with Tesla."

"I looked at my car after it had been charging for a while, and the light on the charging port wasn't lit up anymore. I think my charging port is broken. I've set up a service appointment."

 

[gnuarm]

And now you're being totally dishonest about what I said. I said the exact same thing happened in those previous years, and I meant it. It was a huge amount in those previous years, just like the year you are talking about, not just one or two not completed.


OK, yes, that was something new. They were not proactively upscaling service ahead of time as fast as they should have in some areas. However, I have noticed something relevant to this. I've been seeing both Tesla forums over this past year, and you know what I have noticed? Tons of new people are filling up normally useful service time in person and on the phone with these kinds of garbage, B.S. time-wasting meaningless things. Tesla is being overwhelmed with this nonsense. Here are lots of real examples:

"My car only charged to 309 miles. It's supposed to be 310 miles!!!! I think my battery is defective."
(I totally wish I was making that up, but here it is.)
Charging to 100% - Range | Tesla

"I drove 100 miles, and the rated range decreased by 120 miles!!! I was only driving highway speed. I think there's a problem with my car. I've set up a service appointment." (Dozens of these)

"I can't get Android Auto to work."

"My car with high performance summer tires slid down my steeply sloped driveway because of ice. This is a serious safety problem with Tesla."

"I looked at my car after it had been charging for a while, and the light on the charging port wasn't lit up anymore. I think my charging port is broken. I've set up a service appointment."

Of course these very same people will happily "learn" how to estimate their own range and be willing to sit for hours at lower rate chargers when they are caught short and that is all they can find or drive at 40 MPH to the next charger.

I don't get why you think the general public will be willing to change the way they drive so radically. Yeah, over decades these cars will be the norm and expectations will ultimately match reality. But I'm willing to bet it is the reality that changes a lot more than the expectations.

 

[strider]

Of course these very same people will happily "learn" how to estimate their own range and be willing to sit for hours at lower rate chargers when they are caught short and that is all they can find or drive at 40 MPH to the next charger.

I don't get why you think the general public will be willing to change the way they drive so radically. Yeah, over decades these cars will be the norm and expectations will ultimately match reality. But I'm willing to bet it is the reality that changes a lot more than the expectations.

No one here "disagrees with Tesla" about the need for more chargers. Seriously, please show me anyone saying that the current state of charging infrastructure is perfect just the way it is. You can't because no one has said that. You are inventing things to argue with us about.

What we disagree with is your pollyanna "Tesla is doomed if they don't install 26,000 more chargers RIGHT NOW!" They are installing chargers as fast as they have the time and money for. Cash is tight right now and Wall Street cares more about # of cars produced than it does about # of chargers deployed or the size of the service department. So Tesla shifted cash and resources into car production. Hopefully they get M3 production figured out and they can shift back to other priorities.

Furthermore, Tesla seems to have no problem selling cars even with the current "dismal" state of charging.

You keep saying that this isn't about you but you disingenuously state that the "general public" will have the same problems with charging that you do. I have given you the data the proves that you are wrong. The general public will not have the same problems that you do because the general public does not drive like you do. 99% of trips taken by the "general public" are less than 90 miles with 95% less than 30 miles. No matter how crappy the weather is you can do those trips, today, in an EV, without any public charging. I am willing to bet that a super tiny percentage of that remaining 1% are away from any interstates and therefore not covered by the current SC infrastructure. The only thing you've done in this thread is complain about how Tesla hasn't put an SC exactly where you need it at any given point of time and because of that the company will fail.

Furthermore, your whole "people aren't going to pay big bucks for a second car" thing is completely bonkers. I just gave you the data wherein you could use your "big bucks" car 99% of the time and your ICE 1% of the time. So of course you will have no problem having the 99% car being nicer than the 1% car.

BTW, you are doing the right thing. It was awesome that you talked to that hospital admin about adding some L2 chargers. As you said, if you spend the night somewhere an AC charge is plenty. It doesn't have to be all SC all the time. As more and more EV drivers advocate for more chargers and business owners do that then there will be more chargers.

 

[gnuarm]

No one here "disagrees with Tesla" about the need for more chargers. Seriously, please show me anyone saying that the current state of charging infrastructure is perfect just the way it is. You can't because no one has said that. You are inventing things to argue with us about.

You accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then you....

What we disagree with is your pollyanna "Tesla is doomed if they don't install 26,000 more chargers RIGHT NOW!"

Do exactly that!

They are installing chargers as fast as they have the time and money for. Cash is tight right now and Wall Street cares more about # of cars produced than it does about # of chargers deployed or the size of the service department. So Tesla shifted cash and resources into car production. Hopefully they get M3 production figured out and they can shift back to other priorities.

If you bothered to read my posts I have been saying all along that Tesla has a lead on chargers for several years to come. But that window will close more quickly if they don't get on the stick. It's not just that they need to supply charging for people to use to charge their cars, but that they need to avoid the negative press like they are getting in California when chargers have wait lines and all the attendant problems (like where to park the car while waiting).

Furthermore, Tesla seems to have no problem selling cars even with the current "dismal" state of charging.

The problem isn't now, its that it will only get worse since the cars are being made a lot faster than the charging.

You keep saying that this isn't about you but you disingenuously state that the "general public" will have the same problems with charging that you do. I have given you the data the proves that you are wrong.

You absolutely have not provided any evidence that Tesla is building charging fast enough or that the problems that exist in some parts of the country aren't real.

The general public will not have the same problems that you do because the general public does not drive like you do. 99% of trips taken by the "general public" are less than 90 miles with 95% less than 30 miles. No matter how crappy the weather is you can do those trips, today, in an EV, without any public charging. I am willing to bet that a super tiny percentage of that remaining 1% are away from any interstates and therefore not covered by the current SC infrastructure.

I explained to you how 99% of trips is not what determines if a buyer is comfortable with the Tesla range and charging. Very few people never take their cars on trips longer than a single tank of gas. So even if 99% of their trips are plenty short, that 1% that are too long to not charge are how they will judge the cars. They may not realize it when they buy their cars, but with a short range battery that short trip is only 70 miles worse case. Anything longer and they will likely need to charge before returning home.

The only thing you've done in this thread is complain about how Tesla hasn't put an SC exactly where you need it at any given point of time and because of that the company will fail.

Now you are just making up stuff. This is the sort of exaggeration that makes it impossible to even discuss issues with you.

Furthermore, your whole "people aren't going to pay big bucks for a second car" thing is completely bonkers. I just gave you the data wherein you could use your "big bucks" car 99% of the time and your ICE 1% of the time. So of course you will have no problem having the 99% car being nicer than the 1% car.

That's exactly my situation... except I have no interest in dragging out an ICE vehicle to take long trips. Give that a bit of thought. They buy a BEV for ecological and other reasons and then keep it in the garage when they take long trips! No, that is not how Tesla will sell cars, sorry, it just won't work. You should stop thinking like you have for the last few years you have had your car and think like the rest of the population will think when they consider buying a BEV.

BTW, you are doing the right thing. It was awesome that you talked to that hospital admin about adding some L2 chargers. As you said, if you spend the night somewhere an AC charge is plenty. It doesn't have to be all SC all the time. As more and more EV drivers advocate for more chargers and business owners do that then there will be more chargers.

I've never said we need Superchargers all over. We need lots more, but we also need lots more L2 chargers. Even if only used while shopping, etc, they at least recover the charge you spend going shopping.

I've been paying a lot more attention to the L2 charging and it is also very lacking in many areas. Where I am at the moment in central TN charging is also a big problem. This is even more rural than where I hang in central VA, so I am charging from 120 in the garage where we may install a 240 volt outlet. Before I can even reach a L2 charger I need to have at least 30 miles on the car and to reach a Supercharger I need 60 miles (or maybe 70 in the winter), so a full day charging. And that is only in one direction. Coming up from Chattanooga today we passed (actually not really passed since they were some miles off the road) two destination chargers within 20 miles of Chattanooga, then nothing for the next 70 miles, not even a J-1772. The Supercharger in Chattanooga is in a pay parking lot at the airport where there is nothing to do but sit in your car and wonder why the browser won't work. To top it off they don't seem to work at full capacity. I guess I need to report them to Tesla to see about getting them fixed.

Yep, the current charging solutions are very inadequate in many areas of the country even outside of CA.

Tesla isn't going to be able to continue selling cars to early adopters much longer. You can remain in denial if you want. You and I don't matter. But your opinions also don't matter to the potential customers that Tesla is trying to market to. These days everyone I know in Frederick think my car is fabulous with all the bells and whistles and the pretty blue paint job and gull wing doors. But they aren't even considering buying a Tesla because of the problems I am continually having charging it.[/QUOTE]

 

[TexasEV]

Level 2 charging starts at home. You have a Model X P100D and you “may” install a 240V outlet in your garage? You should have done that or installed a Wall Connector when you ordered your car.

By the way you’re not an early adopter, other than perhaps being an early adopter for central Tennessee or Virginia. Those of us who bought a Model S in 2013, maybe 2014 were early adopters. Now Teslas are mainstream, as you can tell by the questions asked on this forum. One billion miles driven on autopilot, and that’s not even counting the cars of the early adopters which were pre-autopilot.

 

[gnuarm]

Level 2 charging starts at home. You have a Model X P100D and you “may” install a 240V outlet in your garage? You should have done that or installed a Wall Connector when you ordered your car.

What makes you think this is my garage? My friend has offered to install the outlet, but it won't happen overnight. I'll need to run point on it. Fortunately the run is very short, only three feet or so.

By the way you’re not an early adopter, other than perhaps being an early adopter for central Tennessee or Virginia. Those of us who bought a Model S in 2013, maybe 2014 were early adopters. Now Teslas are mainstream, as you can tell by the questions asked on this forum. One billion miles driven on autopilot, and that’s not even counting the cars of the early adopters which were pre-autopilot.

I don't think you understand the early adopter concept. These cars are still far from mainstream. Early adopters pay higher prices and deal with limited availability and various limitations of the products. This all still applies and will for the foreseeable future.

Once Tesla is cranking out the $35,000 version and there are many more charging facilities so people don't have to wait in line and the other various growing pain issues are resolved... then they will be mainstream.

 

[Cycle11111]

Do you charge in Truckee? This is a trip I've heard as the reason why someone won't buy a BEV. He thinks stopping to charge on the way up is ridiculous. I suppose he has to buy gas in Truckee but maybe not since the round trip is only 380 miles. Many cars will go that far on a tank of gas easily.

We have

Do you charge in Truckee? This is a trip I've heard as the reason why someone won't buy a BEV. He thinks stopping to charge on the way up is ridiculous. I suppose he has to buy gas in Truckee but maybe not since the round trip is only 380 miles. Many cars will go that far on a tank of gas easily.

We have a house in Truckee and an apartment in the Valley since I work there. I charge in Truckee when I am home and make it in one shot heading back down to the valley. The charging in Rocklin is no big deal - 20 minutes or so. Simple fact with traffic it takes 4.5-5.5 hours to get up to Truckee assuming you leave the valley after 3pm during the week so by Rocklin I need a comfort stop anyway.

 

[gnuarm]

We have

We have a house in Truckee and an apartment in the Valley since I work there. I charge in Truckee when I am home and make it in one shot heading back down to the valley. The charging in Rocklin is no big deal - 20 minutes or so. Simple fact with traffic it takes 4.5-5.5 hours to get up to Truckee assuming you leave the valley after 3pm during the week so by Rocklin I need a comfort stop anyway.

The guy talking about BEVs being impractical is otherwise a bit of a jerk (if you leave out the "bit of a" part). In general though I'd like to think the disruption from having to charge is minimal but if often doesn't work out that way. Today I made my run from east TN to central VA and made my first shorter charging stop in Bristol, then again in Wytheville while I ate (gotta find another place, Shoney's is awful!). Charged at over 90% I still couldn't make it home without stopping in Lexington. At least I made good use of being off the highway by visiting the Walmart for food and stuff. So a trip that would take me about 8 hours in the truck took me 11 hours with charging and a half hour in the store, an extra 2.5 hours for getting off the highway and charging. Hmmm... that doesn't seem to add up. Oh, I forgot about the traffic jam near Ozone. Don't know how long that was... but still, the charging time adds up.

If I could make it to Wytheville on one charge, charging up while eating and then back to VA on one charge, that would save me pulling off the highway twice for bump charges. But at 267 and 233 miles, these legs are just too long even with a 285 mile range battery. Oh well, it ain't happenin'. In the summer I might be able to cover the northern leg on one full charge without worry, but I think I'll need to stop in Knoxville no matter what. 267 miles on a 285 mile battery sounds like trouble as well as slow driving to even make it feasible.

 

[Big Earl]

The guy talking about BEVs being impractical is otherwise a bit of a jerk (if you leave out the "bit of a" part). In general though I'd like to think the disruption from having to charge is minimal but if often doesn't work out that way. Today I made my run from east TN to central VA and made my first shorter charging stop in Bristol, then again in Wytheville while I ate (gotta find another place, Shoney's is awful!). Charged at over 90% I still couldn't make it home without stopping in Lexington. At least I made good use of being off the highway by visiting the Walmart for food and stuff. So a trip that would take me about 8 hours in the truck took me 11 hours with charging and a half hour in the store, an extra 2.5 hours for getting off the highway and charging. Hmmm... that doesn't seem to add up. Oh, I forgot about the traffic jam near Ozone. Don't know how long that was... but still, the charging time adds up.

If I could make it to Wytheville on one charge, charging up while eating and then back to VA on one charge, that would save me pulling off the highway twice for bump charges. But at 267 and 233 miles, these legs are just too long even with a 285 mile range battery. Oh well, it ain't happenin'. In the summer I might be able to cover the northern leg on one full charge without worry, but I think I'll need to stop in Knoxville no matter what. 267 miles on a 285 mile battery sounds like trouble as well as slow driving to even make it feasible.

Have you tried making more frequent, shorter charging stops? You can save quite a bit of time by charging to 65% instead of 90% and making an extra stop. We typically charge from 15% to 65%, which takes about 20 minutes. Going up to 90% will double the charging time to about 40 minutes but you won't get double the range.

The car's nav recommends three 40-50 minute stops on a trip from Michigan to DC (660 miles) with a total charging time of just over 2 hours. We do it in five ~20 minute stops with total charging time around 90 minutes plus a couple extra minutes for the additional highway exits. Your X will use more power than our 3, but your results should be similar.

 

[gnuarm]

Have you tried making more frequent, shorter charging stops? You can save quite a bit of time by charging to 65% instead of 90% and making an extra stop. We typically charge from 15% to 65%, which takes about 20 minutes. Going up to 90% will double the charging time to about 40 minutes but you won't get double the range.

The car's nav recommends three 40-50 minute stops on a trip from Michigan to DC (660 miles) with a total charging time of just over 2 hours. We do it in five ~20 minute stops with total charging time around 90 minutes plus a couple extra minutes for the additional highway exits. Your X will use more power than our 3, but your results should be similar.

Two reasons why the short stops don't work for me. One is that often they don't put me at a place where I can do anything useful like fire up the laptop and read/write email. I do need to eat which is never a short stop. So if I need to stop for an hour to eat, I should make the most of that time rather than waste it because I'm going to stop in another 100 miles anyway.

This is why I think they need to have trip oriented Superchargers roughly 50 miles or closer. Then drivers have more options than just "being able to get there". I keep harping on the theme that "it's about the charging, stupid" but I firmly believe that. Having just enough charging to be able to make trips isn't going to be enough to attract the typical driver. Trips will need to be easy without having to rely on special tools and entering Wh/mi numbers pulled from air! I'm a friggin' engineer and I find this to be a PITA.

With ICE cars I don't need to know how far I can go on a tank because in 10 minutes and 10 miles I can typically fill my tank. BEVs won't become mainstream until this is at lease approached in some way by adequate charging solutions.

 

[gnuarm]

Did a business trip this week, about 180 miles each way. I charged to 100% before leaving here and we reached the hotel in Rocky Mount with some 15% spare, I think. Maybe it was a bit more, but I recall even though we had a full charge, it initially predicted only 10% at the destination. We stayed at a hotel that happened to be the Supercharger location. We charged while eating and even though there were no other cars on the 8 chargers I got an email saying I would have been charged an idle fee but they would waive it this first time. I thought they only charged idle fees when they were at least half full!?

On the return trip we had put about 45 miles on locally before we left and had to charge at Chester with only 5% reserve. I guess that shouldn't be unexpected, but it's not like the weather is really cold. It was some 50+ degrees yesterday! The good news is my friend who, likes to make fun of the car was with me and we ate at the Wawa. He is ok with eating at places like that and I found something to eat that was agreeable (Wawa seems better than Sheetz I think). So when we were done eating the car was back up to 220+ miles. I let him drive the rest of the trip. I think driving the car and realizing how fast the car can charge (in the grand scheme of things) made him like it a lot more. He really liked the way it handles. He isn't ready to plunk down $45,000 for one yet, but he asked if the company will be giving out model 3 company cars. lol

 

[jboy210]

Did a business trip this week, about 180 miles each way. I charged to 100% before leaving here and we reached the hotel in Rocky Mount with some 15% spare, I think. Maybe it was a bit more, but I recall even though we had a full charge, it initially predicted only 10% at the destination. We stayed at a hotel that happened to be the Supercharger location. We charged while eating and even though there were no other cars on the 8 chargers I got an email saying I would have been charged an idle fee but they would waive it this first time. I thought they only charged idle fees when they were at least half full!?

I have noticed Idle fees are by location. And I suspect/hope soon they will be everywhere as the number of Teslas keeps growing.

It makes more sense for everyone to know there is an $1/minute idle fee for all Superchargers, rather than having it based on location and/or usage load. That way people get used to charging and disconnecting, and if they are staying, finding a non-Supercharger spot. It is bad enough when we get ICEed out. It is tragic when another discourteous Tesla blocks us from using a Supercharger!

 

[gnuarm]

I have noticed Idle fees are by location. And I suspect/hope soon they will be everywhere as the number of Teslas keeps growing.

It makes more sense for everyone to know there is an $1/minute idle fee for all Superchargers, rather than having it based on location and usage. That way people get used to charging and disconnecting, and if they are staying, finding a non-Supercharger spot. It is bad enough when we get ICEed out. It is tragic when another discourteous Tesla blocks us from using a Supercharger!

I'm calling BS on this. The chargers were otherwise EMPTY!!! I didn't receive a notice the charging was complete. Tesla changed the rules on me without notice. They send me all manner of junk email, yet they can't send me anything useful.

 

[jboy210]

I'm calling BS on this. The chargers were otherwise EMPTY!!! I didn't receive a notice the charging was complete. Tesla changed the rules on me without notice. They send me all manner of junk email, yet they can't send me anything useful.

I always receive notices from my car when charging is complete. Even in my garage. Do you have these messages enabled in your phone and in the app?

I use Android and in the Tesla app it is in the setup menu under Notifications. There are options to get messages when charging starts, is interrupted, and complete. It also says "Supercharger notifications are always ON" (their capital letters, not mine). It pops up on my phone with a notification similar to when I get a text message.

When charging is almost complete I get a message that say it is almost complete and, if there is a Idle fee, a warning that their is such a fee, and the amount per minute. Again, I believe they should always have a $1/minute idle fee, with a grace period of 5 minutes after supercharging is complete.

 

[Rocky_H]

and even though there were no other cars on the 8 chargers I got an email saying I would have been charged an idle fee but they would waive it this first time. I thought they only charged idle fees when they were at least half full!?

Yes, that is correct. Idle fees only apply if that site is half or more full. That is still posted on their website.

I'm calling BS on this. The chargers were otherwise EMPTY!!! I didn't receive a notice the charging was complete. Tesla changed the rules on me without notice. They send me all manner of junk email, yet they can't send me anything useful.

No, they did not change the rules on you! Please stop jumping to conclusions. I saw people discussing it in another thread that Tesla has some kind of defect or glitch with their detection and other people have been getting these wrong notices of idle fees when they were at other sites that were completely empty.

 

[gnuarm]

Yes, that is correct. Idle fees only apply if that site is half or more full. That is still posted on their website.


No, they did not change the rules on you! Please stop jumping to conclusions. I saw people discussing it in another thread that Tesla has some kind of defect or glitch with their detection and other people have been getting these wrong notices of idle fees when they were at other sites that were completely empty.

You do realize it doesn't really matter what the rules are if they charge you anyway... right? I wonder how many hours on the phone it would take to get that reversed.