Not so sure anymore if I should get the P100D when I read all these threads...

[sandpiper]

Unless the 2 year is different from the 3 year you don't have a cancellation clause - other than the usual provisions by which you can break the lease and pay out the difference.

I'm 95% sure, having read it a few times, that Elon means that AP will expect you to actually keep your hand on the wheel - rather than to stay hands off and tug on it when it gets confused. This is clearly in response to a few accidents where Tesla noted that the driver ignored the AP pleas to keep their hands on the wheel.

In practice, this means keep one hand lightly on the wheel. I'm honestly not thrilled by this, but I can understand the company's reaction given the public/media blustering that's gone on over the last few months. This is the price we must collectively pay for not being adults and not being willing to take responsibility for our own actions.

Sigh. We complain about the nanny state, but when somebody decides to treat us like adults, we punish them for it.

 

[Drucifer]

I'm not sure what that means either. I know if it is too nagging, there will be an owner backlash and it will get sorted out in some manner.

But a lot of this seems like "over thinking" it to me. Sometimes, it's better to just buy your ticket and take the ride.

 

[sandpiper]

I'm not sure what that means either. I know if it is too nagging, there will be an owner backlash and it will get sorted out in some manner.

But a lot of this seems like "over thinking" it to me. Sometimes, it's better to just buy your ticket and take the ride.

I agree with that. What happens, happens. It will work itself out.

 

[xborg]

You're not willing to allow the possibility that they genuinely want to innovate as fast as possible?

Nothing is stopping them to innovate. It is a very good think. But, releasing those innovation gradually, every 3 months is not good for customers. Most of the big manufacturers are transparent about release dates and upcoming new features/innovations. But Tesla is always trying to keep it as secret. They are doing that because they don't have to luxury to slow down the production line. On the other hand, Mercedes can announce new E series 6 months before, and the demand for E series can go down gradually. They don't care because they can shift E series production line to C series, which is released 6 months before E series and has good demand. If you check big manufacturers, they don't update every model at the same time, so they can keep production line 100% efficiency at all times. But Tesla cannot afford announcing a big upgrade and slowing down the production line until that upgrade is live. By releasing new features or changes, or initiating referral programs, they are trying to keep sales live. When they will have S X 3 Y models at the same time, I believe that they will go same route as other manufacturers.
PS: These are just my opinion.

 

[RogerHScott]

releasing those innovation gradually, every 3 months is not good for customers

You've got a large sample of Tesla customers right here. I encourage you to post a poll asking if people feel Tesla should slow the
pace at which they release changes. People could also respond to that thread explaining the ways in which these rapid innovations
are "not good for" them.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

To the person who started this thread, it already doesn't sound like a Tesla is for you. Combined with this newly announced change, which you apparently dislike, makes Tesla even LESS suitable to your needs. I encourage you to drop Tesla from your consideration at this time, and until such time that Tesla vehicle features actually appeal to you. However, I believe you will be disappointed with how Mercedes and others have implemented similar features - you must also keep your hands on the wheel at all times.

 

[xborg]

You've got a large sample of Tesla customers right here. I encourage you to post a poll asking if people feel Tesla should slow the
pace at which they release changes. People could also respond to that thread explaining the ways in which these rapid innovations
are "not good for" them.

Great idea! I'll post a pool soon.

 

[habanero69]

I hear it varies somewhat service center to service center. Sadly, it doesn't appear they all give 5 star service. I have been very happy with my experience. I had a minor issue with my car late on a Sunday night. They DROVE to MY house with a Tesla loaner and showed up at almost midnight. Took my car, left the loaner, fixed it over night, and swapped it back with me at 7am so I wouldn't be late for work Monday morning. It was all done in less than 8 hours from initial call. This was a few months ago, earlier this year. Do other car companies fix cars in the middle of the night on the weekend? I've always had a Tesla loaner and they seem to know me by name at the service center. I've never bought another $100k + car, but then again, I've never had this good of service with anyone else. I'm sure there are things others do that Tesla doesn't and that may rub some folks the wrong way; however, I've yet to enjoy driving another car as much as I love this Tesla. It's not perfect, and it's lacking in some areas, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else at this point...

Dang, that IS amazing service. I'm about to find out today how anxious my SC wants to take care of 2 issues on a car delivered on Friday 9/9. So far the communication has been good, but the execution for the actual fixes is what I'm waiting to see... I heard the mention of maybe a week or 2 depending on parts, etc., etc. That concerns me. If I need a loaner and I get an ICE, that will pretty much tell me it's going to a rough 24 months when lease is up.

 

[Wuggado?]

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

To the person who started this thread, it already doesn't sound like a Tesla is for you. Combined with this newly announced change, which you apparently dislike, makes Tesla even LESS suitable to your needs. I encourage you to drop Tesla from your consideration at this time, and until such time that Tesla vehicle features actually appeal to you. However, I believe you will be disappointed with how Mercedes and others have implemented similar features - you must also keep your hands on the wheel at all times.

I couldn't agree more. People are upset because Tesla is no longer going to facilitate people driving without their hands on the wheel? Really? Since when is driving down the road without hands on been a good idea? There are semi-regular posts on this forum where a Tesla was driving down the road on AP and the car did something ill-advised. That alone is enough for me to keep my hands on.

 

[Seashepherd]

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

To the person who started this thread, it already doesn't sound like a Tesla is for you. Combined with this newly announced change, which you apparently dislike, makes Tesla even LESS suitable to your needs. I encourage you to drop Tesla from your consideration at this time, and until such time that Tesla vehicle features actually appeal to you. However, I believe you will be disappointed with how Mercedes and others have implemented similar features - you must also keep your hands on the wheel at all times.

Incorrect. Mercedes Drive Pilot does not require the driver to have his hands on the steering wheel all the time. Same with Elon Musk, before AP 8.0 he clearly stated that one does not have to have his hands on the steering wheel all the times. Keeping your hands on the steering wheel when the car is in AP is not basic. Keeping your hands very close to the steering wheel is basic, but keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?

 

[RogerHScott]

keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?

Well, no. Having your hands (in some way or other) on the wheel is not the same as steering. Just as having your foot in the vicinity
of the brake and accelerator is not the same as doing what TACC does for you.

 

[WannabeOwner]

@Seashepherd interesting that your initial post got 10 dislikes and 4 likes followed by 49% of replies saying "Your observations and concerns are valid", 49% saying "I have had fantastic service / a fully-loaded loaner" and 1% "stick with a Luxury brand". I have no idea what the 10x Dislikers beef was about ...

I have come at this from a different viewpoint. I consider myself privileged, sounds like you are too. I have decided to do what I can about the rape of the planet's non-renewable resources. So my message to you is "You should not be driving an ICE - period" ...

... You will have figured already that I no longer get many dinner invitations! I chastise my rich ba$tard friends for doing the school run in their Range Rovers. I understand they need one to drive across a ploughed field on their estate, but they can certainly afford an additional vehicle that is more appropriate and eco-friendly for the school run. They need to do more to reduce their house-fuel usage, install PV on their rooves, recycle more ... I drone on and ON at them !!

I could afford a supercar, indeed I would love to have one (would have LOVED to have one ...) but I could never reconcile with myself having a high-days and holy-days vehicle with two seats that was utterly useless in all other respects. The P100DL you are considering is only bettered, performance-wise, by two other Supercars both costing almost 10x as much. Yet it will seat 5 adults comfortably and carry a mountain of their luggage. (You and I know that Tesla weights a lot anyway, but don't forget to tell your passengers "Of course acceleration is hampered by us being 5-up" - just before you launch!)

You are right about fit and finish, and Luxury / Premium. Tesla is a young company, they have sourced the best experts in the field, and that may include Interior Finish, but they aren't there yet. Its not a bother for me, we gave up all that sort of stuff a decade ago when we starting turning Green, so I've come to Tesla from a family-fleet of [small, non-luxury] vehicles from the Lying & Cheating VW group.

You are right to be worried about service. The growing pains of their growth are definitely an issue, and I don't know if they will solve them well and in a timely fashion. Going from 40,000 cars a year to 400,000 a year, in the space of a year, also requires increasing the service personnel, and locations / size of facilities by a factor of 10. Its a big ask and I expect it to get worse before it gets better.

I've been happy with service (compared to every car dealer experience I've ever had), I have some niggles about the car that Tesla are happy to sort out but I haven't bothered to find the time for as yet (my choice). I like the fact that doing 25,000-30,000 miles a year I will only have to bother with a single service (and, indeed, no service until Year 2 would actually be enough, to change Brake fluid).

But above all I intend not to be amongst the ranks of my peers when their grandchildren say to them "Grandpa, you knew there was a problem, but you did nothing about it". Perhaps, on my crusade, I could persuade you too?

By your own definition you are an edge case, I would suggest you keep your current daily driver until you are happy beyond doubt with the Tesla; does the Happiness Guarantee, that lets you walk away from the Lease, still exist?

P.S. Try not to bend it. There are way too many horror stories about the delays for Parts for repairs being measure in MONTHS, let along Weeks and Days ...

 

[sandpiper]

Tesla's Autopilot documentation clearly states that the driver is to "keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot." That doesn't leave much room for interpretation, does it? So how can anyone be upset for Tesla enforcing this policy? You should be keeping your hands on the wheel even if the car is steering for you. That is basic. Those who are upset by the changes only have themselves to blame, honestly, because it's those hands-free types that have forced Tesla to make this change.

Yes... and most people do not read the entire owner's manual for their vacuum cleaner, nor do they lubricate the wheels every 6 months or whatever ... yada yada. I contend that Tesla fully knew and expected that people were going drive hands-off with a system that, in the right circumstances, is fully capable of it.... with supervision. They're not idiots and they understand human nature very well. Yes they did what what was legally required, via on-screen warnings and the manual, to be able to later claim "geeze, we didn't expect people to do that." Fair enough. I know that if I drive hands off, I have to do so carefully and it's my own issue if I screw up. it's no different than cruise control.

So... some idiots chose to blame the company after they did something really stupid. And so Tesla is being forced to do exactly what they didn't want to do. I'm waiting for the day when axe makers will have to ask for a signature on a 45 page contract before they can sell you an axe. "I had no idea, judge and jury, that I could slice my leg open if I missed the log my down swing! I need $25 million from the axe-maker to console me."

 

[WannabeOwner]

keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?

I have always driven with my hands on the wheel (when using AP) and I can honestly say that my journeys on AP are less tiring than manual driving. I read many posts claiming that but I did not believe them until I proved it to myself. My opinion was "I've been driving for years, I love driving, its effortless cruising along the highway" but that has changed, and I now arrive fresher and safer. I am sure you will also find, even with hands/hand on the wheel, that you will arrive more refreshed & alert than previously. Fully Autonomous will be something better still ...

I've read of some scary AP near-misses; I expect they represent 1% of drivers, and much less than 1% of their time on AP - its a very small risk - but its my life at stake.

The argument I see voiced here is "At 60 MPH I will travel 68 feet per second. If I react [e.g. move my hands from my lap back onto the wheel] in 1/10th second that's only 7 feet". To me that might make the difference between a Catch and a Drop.

Elon's point is very well made, IME. I do think, from time to time, that it would be safe to "just do that" whilst on AP, where "that" would be e.g. selecting something complex on the screen - lots of vertical and sideways scrolling through Spotify to get to something interesting. Complacency creeps in ... its dangerous ... be careful.

 

[fiksegts]

The service I receive from Tesla is better than any other make I've owned, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, McLaren, etc. My Model S P90DL is 10 months old with 12k miles and it's never been in for anything, zero problems. My X has been in quite a bit though, If I have an issue, Tesla comes to my house with a Tesla loaner and takes my car in.

I wouldn't worry about a new P100D, you'll love the car and won't look back, go for it.

 

[Sir Guacamolaf]

This is why you should get a P100D -

xkcd: Earth Temperature Timeline

 

[Electroman]

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.

 

[Seashepherd]

@Seashepherd interesting that your initial post got 10 dislikes and 4 likes followed by 49% of replies saying "Your observations and concerns are valid", 49% saying "I have had fantastic service / a fully-loaded loaner" and 1% "stick with a Luxury brand". I have no idea what the 10x Dislikers beef was about ...

I have come at this from a different viewpoint. I consider myself privileged, sounds like you are too. I have decided to do what I can about the rape of the planet's non-renewable resources. So my message to you is "You should not be driving an ICE - period" ...

... You will have figured already that I no longer get many dinner invitations! I chastise my rich ba$tard friends for doing the school run in their Range Rovers. I understand they need one to drive across a ploughed field on their estate, but they can certainly afford an additional vehicle that is more appropriate and eco-friendly for the school run. They need to do more to reduce their house-fuel usage, install PV on their rooves, recycle more ... I drone on and ON at them !!

I could afford a supercar, indeed I would love to have one (would have LOVED to have one ...) but I could never reconcile with myself having a high-days and holy-days vehicle with two seats that was utterly useless in all other respects. The P100DL you are considering is only bettered, performance-wise, by two other Supercars both costing almost 10x as much. Yet it will seat 5 adults comfortably and carry a mountain of their luggage. (You and I know that Tesla weights a lot anyway, but don't forget to tell your passengers "Of course acceleration is hampered by us being 5-up" - just before you launch!)

You are right about fit and finish, and Luxury / Premium. Tesla is a young company, they have sourced the best experts in the field, and that may include Interior Finish, but they aren't there yet. Its not a bother for me, we gave up all that sort of stuff a decade ago when we starting turning Green, so I've come to Tesla from a family-fleet of vehicles from the Lying & Cheating VW group.

You are right to be worried about service. The growing pains of their growth are definitely an issue, and I don't know if they will solve them well and in a timely fashion. Going from 40,000 cars a year to 400,000 a year, in the space of a year, also requires increasing the service personnel, and locations / size of facilities by a factor of 10. Its a big ask and I expect it to get worse before it gets better.

I've been happy with service (compared to every car dealer experience I've ever had), I have some niggles about the car that Tesla are happy to sort out but I haven't bothered to find the time for as yet (my choice). I like the fact that doing 25,000-30,000 miles a year I will only have to bother with a single service (and, indeed, no service until Year 2 would actually be enough, to change Brake fluid).

But above all I intend not to be amongst the ranks of my peers when their grandchildren say to them "Grandpa, you knew there was a problem, but you did nothing about it". Perhaps, on my crusade, I could persuade you too?

By your own definition you are an edge case, I would suggest you keep your current daily driver until you are happy beyond doubt with the Tesla; does the Happiness Guarantee, that lets you walk away from the Lease, still exist?

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.

Where is this thing about the need to hold the steering well, coming up? Tesla always suggested that you do, but we all know that it is not necessary as long as you are alert..8.0 does not change anything on that aspect. The nags have been so far and few, but there is so much loose arbitrary speculation here. so much that OP is even claiming hilariously that Mercedes DrivePilot is better than AP. My troll meter kicks in when someone says that.

Transcript:
"There also a large number of important improvements. Something I think will be quite significant is that if the user ignores repeated warning to keep their hands on the wheel, if it ignores the audible alarm more than 3 times in an hour then the driver will have to park and restart in order to enable Autosteer.

One of the ironies that we’ve seen is counter intuitive and a lot of people on the consumer watchdog sites and in some cases on regulatory sites have assumed that Autopilot accidents are more likely for new users. In fact, it is the opposite. Autopilot accidents are far more likely for expert users. It is not the neophytes. It’s the experts.

They get very comfortable with it and repeatedly ignore the car’s warnings. It’s like a reflex. The car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, the car will beep at them, they tug the wheel, and it becomes an unconscious reflex action. So we will see half a dozen or more, sometimes as many as 10 warning in one hour continuously ignored by the driver. We really want to avoid that situation."

Read the last paragraph? For me that means having your hands on the steering wheel rather than tugging...
Have you tested the Drive Pilot system personally?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Incorrect. Mercedes Drive Pilot does not require the driver to have his hands on the steering wheel all the time. Same with Elon Musk, before AP 8.0 he clearly stated that one does not have to have his hands on the steering wheel all the times. Keeping your hands on the steering wheel when the car is in AP is not basic. Keeping your hands very close to the steering wheel is basic, but keeping them on the steering wheel during AP completely defeats the purpose of AP, doesn't it?

Tesla clearly states, in writing in the owners' manual and elsewhere, that drivers are to keep their hands on the wheel at all times while using Autopilot. I'm simply saying that if that is a requirement, then there should be no surprise that Tesla is establishing a stricter enforcement policy in light of how people are actually using the feature.

Nobody here can make this decision for you. Perhaps the solution might be to test drive a vehicle once 8.0 rolls out, to see if you like how Tesla has implemented some of the new controls.

 

[Alketi]

Transcript:
Read the last paragraph? For me that means having your hands on the steering wheel rather than tugging...
Have you tested the Drive Pilot system personally?

TheDrive did a head-to-head review of both systems. The results are fairly enlightening.

The War For Autonomous Driving: 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class VS. 2017 Tesla Model S