shrspeedblade
Rideshare Monkey
Isn't it great that Tesla is producing EVs that inspire the same sort of absurd bench racing arguments as all the other performance automotive forums? 
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Dude seriously...,the other guy posted sources and all you come up with is "butt feel"-basically.
And if you activate google you will find some more tests that support his numbers.
I understand that an EV might feel faster simply because you don`t have to floor the gas for torque, but that doesn`t mean that it`s automatically always faster than an ICE in every situation if said ICE actually strains the engine a bit.
This is not about everyday use where I completely agree with your "butt feel", this is about what each of the cars can do if you drive the engine to the limit.
You wouldn`t argue about the Teslas being relatively "slow" past a certain speed due to missing gears either, would you?
Because there are simple measure- and verifyable technical facts that you can`t discuss away
p.s.
The age of the car really doesn`t play a role here either.
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I'm familiar with acceleration and logging equipment.
I set 4 SCTA land speed records. I tuned an engine that was 310rwhp up to 936rwhp.
My best ET was low 9's at upper 140's. I hold an NHRA Super Gas license.
Texas Diesel Nationals:
Training for SCCA license:
Basically, I've driven. raced, and tuned naturally aspired, turbocharged, supercharged bikes, cars, trucks for over 40 years as a hobby.
And I also have over 1,000,000 street miles covering North America, probably half the states and Hawaii, Mexico, Canada. Fewer than 50,000 are EV miles.
I have no stake is saying that EVs have far less lag in real traffic situations. I don't sell or tune EVs, I've just driven them, and driven some really fast ICE cars. My experience driving all kinds of bikes, cars, and trucks on the road tells me the EV is easily the winner.
We will wait for the M3 and see if I'm right or you're right.
But I suggest you test drive some EVs sometime. It's free.
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Cruise at 50 mph in top gear. Mash it.
That's actually fast for a manual. I have a few.
Unless you always drive everywhere at all times in top 30% of your tach, you end up in that situation sooner or later.
An EV has no gears. It's always in the top of the powerband at all speeds.
Man, what a mess of a thread and in no small part to @JonathanD; please keep posting, mate. We all need a laugh; please hug your Tesla tonight and buy it flowers. Maybe your Tesla will hug back this time.
The seemingly most salient points here:
1. ICE cars in this price range have torque, too. It isn't a zero-sum game; half-a-second delays don't negate the literal existence of hundreds of ft-lb of torque. @Knightshade is quite right.
2. ICE cars take effort & a moment or two of planning to achieve their rated 0-60mph times, as @sub, @insaneoctane, and @Zoomit have mentioned. Most typical car owners, I wager, have rarely actually made their ICE's 0-60mph time more than a half-dozen times; the lack of effort needed in an EV to hit a perfect 0-60mph makes them quicker with the way you drive. Car and Driver's 5-60mph times help show the extra effort needed in some ICE cars and how some ICE cars need a dead-stop to build-up as much torque as possible before you start the stopwatch.
I think most people, day-to-day, don't rev their engines and spool up their turbos all the time to keep torque high. Most of us leave a stoplight sans "launch techniques". A good read from Car and Driver on their tests:
But for those who do drive for maximum acceleration, the EV vs ICE differences are not so gaping, I think. It's just a lot easier in an EV to "max out".
The seemingly most salient points here:
1. ICE cars in this price range have torque, too. It isn't a zero-sum game; half-a-second delays don't negate the literal existence of hundreds of ft-lb of torque. @Knightshade is quite right.
2. ICE cars take effort & a moment or two of planning to achieve their rated 0-60mph times, as @sub, @insaneoctane, and @Zoomit have mentioned. Most typical car owners, I wager, have rarely actually made their ICE's 0-60mph time more than a half-dozen times; the lack of effort needed in an EV to hit a perfect 0-60mph makes them quicker with the way you drive. Car and Driver's 5-60mph times help show the extra effort needed in some ICE cars and how some ICE cars need a dead-stop to build-up as much torque as possible before you start the stopwatch.
I think most people, day-to-day, don't rev their engines and spool up their turbos all the time to keep torque high. Most of us leave a stoplight sans "launch techniques". A good read from Car and Driver on their tests:
But for those who do drive for maximum acceleration, the EV vs ICE differences are not so gaping, I think. It's just a lot easier in an EV to "max out".
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Man, what a mess of a thread and in no small part to @JonathanD; please keep posting, mate. We all need a laugh; please hug your Tesla tonight and buy it flowers. Maybe your Tesla will hug back this time.
The seemingly most salient points here:
1. ICE cars in this price range have torque, too. It isn't a zero-sum game; half-a-second delays don't negate the literal existence of hundreds of ft-lb of torque. @Knightshade is quite right.
Glad I could entertain you. The discussion was about EVs being quicker off the line 0-30. The assertion was made, based upon Car & Driver articles, presumably from different issues, different drivers, and different environments, that an IS350 was quicker to 30 than an AWD EV with a similar 0-60 time. I proceeded to disagree with that, and still do.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Fair reading, thanks.
I have to say though, that the ICE requirements read to me as drag racing and taking the car to the track. If I cared about this issue at all for my actual driving, I would be thinking of a passing situation on a climb.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
Right... everyone else is looking at instrumented data but none of that matters because your ass dyno is more accurate.
We get it. You "win". Good day to you sir!
To OP's actual point:
True. This is one of Tesla's disadvantages with the Model 3: options and performance have big gaps between tiers.
It's hard to price a customized a Model 3 for under $40k (easily doable in a BMW 3-series) and I suspect the same will be of performance. Tesla is unusual: not a single sedan with a 3.x second 0 to 60mph time. It takes a relatively massive leap between the 100D and P100D.
For comparison, the BMW 3-series (series is the key word here):
3 body styles (sedan, sports wagon, and gran turismo)
10 sedan models (5 x 2 for optional AWD), 2 sports wagons, and 4 gran turismo's
and maybe 15+ options/packages
The 3-series contains thousands of different permutations. Tesla is a bit more like Apple here: "We've figured out what you want and you'll like it."
No worries; I was curious, too.
True; I want to say lighter cars will jump ahead proportionally here, but I don't know if that's a broad enough assumption.
True. This is one of Tesla's disadvantages with the Model 3: options and performance have big gaps between tiers.
It's hard to price a customized a Model 3 for under $40k (easily doable in a BMW 3-series) and I suspect the same will be of performance. Tesla is unusual: not a single sedan with a 3.x second 0 to 60mph time. It takes a relatively massive leap between the 100D and P100D.
For comparison, the BMW 3-series (series is the key word here):
3 body styles (sedan, sports wagon, and gran turismo)
10 sedan models (5 x 2 for optional AWD), 2 sports wagons, and 4 gran turismo's
and maybe 15+ options/packages
The 3-series contains thousands of different permutations. Tesla is a bit more like Apple here: "We've figured out what you want and you'll like it."
No worries; I was curious, too.
True; I want to say lighter cars will jump ahead proportionally here, but I don't know if that's a broad enough assumption.
My ass dyno, and physics. We know the torque curves from both cars. IS needs to get to 5 or 6k RPM to get to peak power. It has an automatic transmission. One has AWD, one does not. The cards are heavily stacked against the Lexus in a quick hop to 30mph, but you can believe whatever you like.
CarlitoDoc
Member
Hey....OP ! Why should you care about 0-60 times......look at Seattle traffic, good luck getting past 40!
One should never compare EV 0-60 numbers with ICE 0-60 numbers (those in specs)
Real test for ICE vehicle 0-xx acceleration is in Drive, foot on the brake pedal
and LIKELY engine killed due to start-stop. We can exclude start-stop but we
will not include sport gear nor holding two pedals or doing anything besides waiting
at the red light, foot on the brake pedal. No sport modes, no other funky selections.
Most cars are sluggish when kept at idle rpm at intersection launch in "default mode".
Preparing for some ultra-blabla stuff is not realistic. ICE vehicles are not
banged "pedal-to-the-metal" all day long. They just don't last that way.
EV's can be banged forever. Until you run out of juice.
Model 3 drivetrain is a new drivetrain. And it is NOT performance oriented. Price,
reliability and efficiency is above performance.
Real test for ICE vehicle 0-xx acceleration is in Drive, foot on the brake pedal
and LIKELY engine killed due to start-stop. We can exclude start-stop but we
will not include sport gear nor holding two pedals or doing anything besides waiting
at the red light, foot on the brake pedal. No sport modes, no other funky selections.
Most cars are sluggish when kept at idle rpm at intersection launch in "default mode".
Preparing for some ultra-blabla stuff is not realistic. ICE vehicles are not
banged "pedal-to-the-metal" all day long. They just don't last that way.
EV's can be banged forever. Until you run out of juice.
Model 3 drivetrain is a new drivetrain. And it is NOT performance oriented. Price,
reliability and efficiency is above performance.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
I will agree with this... however we also know that even Tesla ended up having a fit about drivers doing hard launches on the performance version S cars and locking out hard launch after a certain number were done due to how hard it is on the electric motor and other components... I can't recall if they ended up pulling back on this due to flak from owners... but I've never heard of an ICE car having the computer stop it from being abused if that's what the owner wants to do with it.
We currently have no idea how Tesla have approached this on Model 3 but I would have to assume that they are going to err on the side of caution due to the huge number of them that are going to be sold and that Tesla is going to have to warranty for 4 years.
Well not exactly the same, but there was the GTR debacle http://jalopnik.com/5565919/this-is-nissans-gt-r-launch-control-warranty-settlement/
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, physics (or any hard science) would include actual physical measurements of the performance of the two cars to determine the actual real world results.
Which you have been shown.
And which prove your ass dyno is wrong.
You're always entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
The actual facts say your opinion is wrong.
You can continue to hold it, but you can't be surprised when literally everyone else in the thread is laughing at you for doing so
Speaking of facts you get wrong-
Apparently you don't know the torque curves...
Peak torque (277 ft-lbs) is at 4800 rpms. But it's already over 200 at 1700 rpms and over 250 by 2900
Well, THAT is at least correct... though it shows you don't understand the factors in that that can help the car- like the torque multiplication offered by the converter and the gearing in the transmission and rear end that can be tailored to maximize performance in certain ranges....
That's why, as I mention, the IS350 is surprisingly quick up to 100ish mph... often beating cars that just looking at the engine #s you'd think it wouldn't... but that it tends to fall behind at higher speeds... it's designed to be especially quick in the speeds people actually drive in real life.
It's one of the (many) factors you have made clear you don't understand and why your conclusions don't match professionally measured real-world results.
yes, the Tesla has AWD and the 350 does not (of the two compared- both of course can be had the other way)
But this actually makes your point even worse.
The RWD version of the Tesla would be slower... Teslas own specs say 0.3 seconds slower 0-60. Meaning if you were doing RWD vs RWD the Tesla would lose by even more to the IS350.
I mean- thanks for bringing up yet another bit of evidence you're wrong I guess....
EXOTIC1
Member
I've yet to lose in any 1/8 mile/stoplight race against any P car L car F car or M-AMG car
in my P85DL fun....fun..fun
There will be many cars faster than the M3 until they come out with the 3.2-3.5 (0-60) L upgrade
in my P85DL
fun....fun..funThere will be many cars faster than the M3 until they come out with the 3.2-3.5 (0-60) L upgrade
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Which is why there's a lot more to the story than just the torque curve.
Because I posted the actual 0-30 times and the electric car loses in the comparison.
It also lost 0-40, and 0-50, and 0-60, and in the 1/4 mile.
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