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Now that 100kwh is around the corner

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by blackscraper, Aug 16, 2016.

  1. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    as owners, how large would you like your battery pack be? Such question might have been raised. i am raising this again since 100KWH is coming.

    I, for one, would vouch for the following capacity:
    120KWH in the near future given it is priced "reasonably". Longer term, a 400 or 450 mile real world highway range at 75mph with "fast enough" supercharging is preferable. this might translate into a 150KWH pack.

    Any ideas?
     
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  2. habanero69

    habanero69 I Dont Need Cialis. I Drive an EV.

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    Eventually, until they can either compact the battery density and/or efficiency, weight becomes the enemy for the extra miles you are going to get. It already accounts for a large amount of the vehicle's weight (AND cost)... At some point you might as well tow the battery that semi-tractor trailer company is proposing for its EV. ;)
     
  3. mikeash

    mikeash Active Member

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    How large would I like it to be? If I'm wishing to a magical genie, then I'd like it to be 1PWh, so I'd never have to charge again.
     
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  4. bkp_duke

    bkp_duke Member

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    I need to see 120kWh before I consider an upgrade (from the 85 I have now). Assuming either a drop in replacement, or just motivation for me to trade up to a new Model S.
     
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  5. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    For the Model S, I'm happy with 90 kWh. The Model X absolutely NEEDS 100 kWh if not 120. That thing is a pig when driving faster than 70 mph, especially so when towing.
     
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  6. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

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    I agree.
     
  7. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    The question is not how many kWh we need, rather how many miles would make you absolutey comfortable?

    I would say 350 miles at 70 mph when the temps are in the teens with heat on. This translates to 400 mph in summer
     
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  8. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    You're going to need a 150kWh battery just to tow the Jet Engine you'll be using to get to 400mph in summer.
     
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  9. Electric700

    Electric700 Member

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    185 kWh would be amazing. If this were accomplished with battery energy density improvements and virtually no weight added, you'd be able to drive over 500 miles on one charge. Perhaps Tesla will be able to get to this level within 10 years.
     
  10. Evbwcaer

    Evbwcaer Member

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    Something to consider is the Supercharge rate/taper. If a battery came out that could charge at 350mph from empty to full, and was 85kwh, that would be more appealing to me than a 100kwh with today's taper.

    I realize probably no battery can take that rate near full, but it illustrates a point.
     
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  11. BluestarE3

    BluestarE3 Active Member

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    If it's virtually unlimited range you're after (and chucking reality out the window), you may want to consider this:
    Ford Nucleon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Somewhat crazier idea than the hydrogen fuel cell car... but not by much. :)
     
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  12. bob_p

    bob_p Member

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    After completing our first long range road trip this summer (about 2500 miles round trip) and visiting many SCs along the route, from a road trip perspective, we would like to have a larger battery pack for our next Model S (than our P85), because we had to slow down several times to stretch our charge enough to make it to the next SC. A 100D is likely to have about 20% more range than a P85, with about the same performance. Will that be enough?

    We don't need the larger battery pack for daily driving, I've never had to recharge the car during the day for driving around town. We've only needed the longer range when taking road trips - on routes with superchargers.

    Assuming superchargers are spaced up to 150 miles apart, and driving at typical highway speeds and road conditions requires about 200 miles of rated range capacity to make a 150 mile trip to the next SC, and that we want to keep the car between 10% and 80% charge levels, then the rated capacity of the battery pack would need to be around 285 miles - which is the current 90D.

    Increasing the capacity above that provides an extra cushion for higher speeds or poorer driving conditions (like higher headwinds or elevation changes).

    If a 100D has a rated range of around 320 miles - that may be good enough to effectively use the supercharger network. And going to 125 or 150 may not provide much real value to owners, and justify the 25 to 50% price increase to get extra capacity, that would not really be needed.

    I had "range anxiety" when I first got our P85 in early 2013 (and there weren't any superchargers). I no longer worry about daily driving.

    We had "range anxiety" for our first long range road trip this summer, and the battery capacity of the P85 did require monitoring of battery usage and more careful planning of how much charge we needed at each supercharger (the on board trip planner was always much too optimistic).

    Whether it's a 100 or a 120 or a 125, Tesla will need to continue increasing the battery pack capacity until the capacity is large enough to allow drivers to make long road trips, without having to monitor energy consumption and recharging and allow the drivers to drive as they would with an ICE, between the superchargers.
     
  13. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    I don't need a larger pack at all. I need more Superchargers, faster superchargers and for destination chargers to be prolific. An 85 will go ~3hours without needing to be charged, thats about as much as I can do without needing to stop as well. The problem is on a roadtrip either there isn't a supercharger where I want to stop, or I didn't start with a full charge since the hotel didn't have charging available.

    Triple (or more) the number of supercharger locations, and have hotel charging be commonplace and an 85 is just about perfect.
     
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  14. blackscraper

    blackscraper Member

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    I would second the idea of "larger pack as well as more supercharger and faster charging speed". I have my reservation about “just build more superchargers". I have taken some three road trips so far: Richmond Hill to Parry Sound, Richmond Hill to Key west, Richmond Hill to Chicago. Even if the superchargers are located densely enough, I can't expect them to charge as fast as I can fill up the tank. This fact makes my road trip longer and sometimes I do have to take additional stops avoidable by an ICE car. With current size of pack (mine is 90D), I am still forced to make plans before I set out. The plans largely are to deal with how I am going to accommodate the car. I, for one, can stretch my non-stopping leg to 4 hours easily and believe most others can do so too. So what I vouched for was 4 hours of 75mph, taking into consideration of other adverse conditions like headwind, wet road surface, rain/snow, low/high temperature, elevation etc, you probably need 400 or even 450 rate miles.
     
  15. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    For cold weather climates, we need 150kwh. Lots of SCs will help but who the heck wants to stop every 2 hours to charge when it's -25 out?
     
  16. HillCountryFun

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    Fortunately, with time, we're going to get all 3:
    • Larger packs (up to a point, e.g. 150s?)
    • More SuperChargers (they're never gonna stop building them, especially after they're delivering millions of vehicles per year)
    • Faster SuperChargers (JB said it's coming, just a matter of time)
    :)
     
  17. Boatguy

    Boatguy Member

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    I think battery pack size is irrelevant since I would hope that various efficiency improvements will produce ever greater range with a constant battery pack size.

    But if the intent of the OP is to ask how much range do I need, then the answer is the greater of 400RM or the maximum distance between SC's AND charging at about 250kW. 400RM would deliver 300-350mi of real world driving in consideration of wind, weather, etc. and at 70-75mph would mean 3-4hrs of driving time which is the point at which it's a good idea to get out and walk around, take a bio-break, etc. 250kW charger would get me back on the road in a reasonable period of time.

    For reference, my 2011 Mercedes E350 Bluetec went 650mi on a tank of diesel and took 10min to "recharge".
     
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  18. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    The necessity of superchargers is inversely proportional to range. I don't expect to see them grow much, we're in the middle of a short S curve.
     
  19. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    By my back of the envelope calculations, I'd need a 110KWh pack to get to the nearest supercharger. Or the equivalent on a Model 3.
     
  20. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    There isn't a ton of efficiency left to get. Its not like a ICE that could go from 18->30MPG. Electric motors are extremely efficient already, the big energy losses are tire-road friction (which you need to be able to stop) and aero. They'll undoubtedly be able to make some aero improvements over the years the Tesla is already a very slippery car, but its not going to be anything big. Overall in 10 years they'll be lucky to get another 10%.
     

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