NTHSA Investigating Tesla over growing Phantom Braking complaints

[sleepydoc]

I had a couple just last night - 3 lane road (2 traffic lanes with a shared turn lane in the middle). 45 MPH speed limit. Turned on TACC and the car immediately dropped it’s speed down to 35 MPH despite the fact that the closest car was 2 lanes over and about 200 feet ahead. I had another incident where it almost came to a complete stop.

One problem with all of these discussions is that there’s phantom braking due to inappropriate activation of the EAB system and phantom braking from Tesla’s crappy TACC/vision system. They’re both problems and TACC is the more common issue but it’s very often unclear which is the culprit.

 

[CRIMSON_DATE]

I've had my MYP for 3 days and engauged Autopilot only 2 times. Today I turned it on on a two lant highway not turnoffs or entraces , 50MPH speed limit. I was going the speedlimit and there was a truck behind me. Out of nowhere the collision alram sounded and autopilot hit the brakes so hard I was flying to a hault, the truck behind me was about to rearend me and I had to jam on the accelerator to avoid it. There was nothing in front of me or near me when this happened.

I was prepared to take over in the event the stearing did something wonky but I was not prepared for how agressive this Phantom braking was. I have turned off autostearing Beta. Can't imagine ever using it again or allowing anyone in my family to activate it after what I experienced. I'll stick with the cruise control until they figure this out. Glad they are investigating this was ridiculous. I have autobraking on my highlander and I have never had this happen.

 

[Rancho Gulag]

Enough is enough. I finally reported my Phantom Braking to the NHTSA.
Happens almost every trip. Some are small speed reductions 5 to 15 mph but some are hard braking.
Also acceleration to a set speed on Autopilot has become jerky.

 

[JohnB007]

Are these more serious PBs happening after a new update or has it been happening for a while now?

I'm still puzzled by the huge variances between different people on PB experiences...

At least for me, my FSD Beta is on more than 90% of the time, and it works well in most situations. Obviously it works the worst on busy streets and sometimes I turn it off manually but it sure is the best feature of Tesla, IMO.

 

[Dewg]

When I got my MY in early 2021, build quality was a problem, but was getting better. I often wonder if there were non-cosmetic build quality issues as well. Poorly installed cameras with loose wiring harnesses, etc. that have lead to severe AP problems. I'm also puzzled why features are getting better for some people and worse for others.

 

[Padelford]

I recently drove from Seattle to LA and back, three days each way, using NoA, and PB events happened every day. It was hard to tell what was causing them. Overall, I was disappointed that NoA was just as problematic on the trip as it was in 2020. I expected better.

 

[Scott Norberg]

I have had this happen to me 5 times in the last 3 or 4 weeks.
Three times on one stretch of 2 lane road in northern Wisconsin, 55 mph. One was obvious when approaching a narrow bridge, the car would have come to a complete stop if I wouldn't have accelerated and the guy behind me would have been in my back seat.

Two other times on that same road, I think it has something to do with the fact that there was a really gusty wind that day.

Last week on a 4 lane highway using TACC, no traffic (thank goodness) 70 MPH and the car just decided to brake. Again there was a very gusty side wind, and it was like to car was trying to avoid something, as soon as I tapped the accelerator the car went back to the 70 by itself.

Just my experiences, for what it is worth.

 

[2101Guy]

I have had this happen to me 5 times in the last 3 or 4 weeks.
Three times on one stretch of 2 lane road in northern Wisconsin, 55 mph. One was obvious when approaching a narrow bridge, the car would have come to a complete stop if I wouldn't have accelerated and the guy behind me would have been in my back seat.

Two other times on that same road, I think it has something to do with the fact that there was a really gusty wind that day.

Last week on a 4 lane highway using TACC, no traffic (thank goodness) 70 MPH and the car just decided to brake. Again there was a very gusty side wind, and it was like to car was trying to avoid something, as soon as I tapped the accelerator the car went back to the 70 by itself.

Just my experiences, for what it is worth.

All of that is expected to be fixed in just a few more weeks.

Elon Musk confident Tesla Full Self-Driving will be finished by end of 2022

Tesla CEO Elon Musk said during the Q4 2021 Earnings Call that he is confident the company’s Full Self-Driving suite will be finished by 2022. Musk was extremely confident in his prediction, stating he will be “shocked” if Tesla does not complete FSD by the end of the year. Tesla’s Full...

www.teslarati.com

 

[Scott Norberg]

I thought I should post an update. I just updated to 2022.36.6 which included a FSD upgrade (I think), I am not sure how the FSD version and the software version is related, I am assuming that the FSD update is just part of the software update, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, I updated to 36.6 before going on a trip, Duluth and back, about 170 miles each way, and the weather was terrible, side wind gusts to 60mph. I did not have one PB incident the entire trip. I find this to be encouraging, or did I just get lucky? I used navigate on autopilot pretty much the whole way up and back.

 

[Dewg]

I thought I should post an update. I just updated to 2022.36.6 which included a FSD upgrade (I think), I am not sure how the FSD version and the software version is related, I am assuming that the FSD update is just part of the software update, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, I updated to 36.6 before going on a trip, Duluth and back, about 170 miles each way, and the weather was terrible, side wind gusts to 60mph. I did not have one PB incident the entire trip. I find this to be encouraging, or did I just get lucky? I used navigate on autopilot pretty much the whole way up and back.

2022.36.6 is the general code branch, and not FSD Beta. FSD Beta is currently 2022.36.15 (10.69.3.0) for limited testing, and 2022.20.19 (10.69.2.4) for FSD Beta branch.

 

[2101Guy]

I thought I should post an update. I just updated to 2022.36.6 which included a FSD upgrade (I think), I am not sure how the FSD version and the software version is related, I am assuming that the FSD update is just part of the software update, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, I updated to 36.6 before going on a trip, Duluth and back, about 170 miles each way, and the weather was terrible, side wind gusts to 60mph. I did not have one PB incident the entire trip. I find this to be encouraging, or did I just get lucky? I used navigate on autopilot pretty much the whole way up and back.

You got lucky

 

[Scott Norberg]

You got lucky

:-(

 

[enemji]

Earlier tonight I was doing 50mph on AP in a relatively free of traffic 3 lane highway. Suddenly my car started slowing down and came to 20mph. I wondered if this was a PB event? I glanced at my screen and on it there in tiny letters it said “Slowing down for emergency lights”. So I looked up and quarter of a mile ahead there indeed was a police car that was stopped by the side of the road working on someone who was speeding.

Huh!

 

[sleepydoc]

Earlier tonight I was doing 50mph on AP in a relatively free of traffic 3 lane highway. Suddenly my car started slowing down and came to 20mph. I wondered if this was a PB event? I glanced at my screen and on it there in tiny letters it said “Slowing down for emergency lights”. So I looked up and quarter of a mile ahead there indeed was a police car that was stopped by the side of the road working on someone who was speeding.

Huh!

You didn’t notice the lights yourself? Good thing Tesla was paying attention!

This is interesting because I’ve had several occasions where I’ve come upon emergency lights but tesla has failed to make any sort of accommodation or to even acknowledge their existence. I’d also say that while slowing down is good, slowing to 20mph is excessive. That *should* be a relatively easy adjustment, though.

 

[enemji]

You didn’t notice the lights yourself? Good thing Tesla was paying attention!

This is interesting because I’ve had several occasions where I’ve come upon emergency lights but tesla has failed to make any sort of accommodation or to even acknowledge their existence. I’d also say that while slowing down is good, slowing to 20mph is excessive. That *should* be a relatively easy adjustment, though.

The good thing was it slowed down very slowly, and not a slam on the brakes slowdown. I almost thought I ran out of gas … cough cough…. Battery. It was 20mph when we were next to the police car.

 

[DWtsn]

The good thing was it slowed down very slowly, and not a slam on the brakes slowdown. I almost thought I ran out of gas … cough cough…. Battery. It was 20mph when we were next to the police car.

I had two of my local State Troopers I know out here in east Texas do me a favor and let me "test" my FSD Beta. They positioned on the side of the road, emergency lights on, and I drove past them with the FSD engaged, in the right lane closest to their SUVs. My car did NOTHING!! It didn't slow down, didn't react, nothing!! Then, the other day, coming through Forney my car drastically slowed down twice in a mile-stretch for police with their lights on wayyyyyyy off to the side of the road!!! WTHHHhhhhhh? No sense to its' logic sometimes!

 

[Dan D.]

Also to be fair, I suspect that many, if not most, of these complaints are from much older software than today and may predate the PB fixes that have been made in the last few months. More than likely, Tesla's response will be along those lines that the complaints have been overcome by events.

In my case, my car initially was plagued by PB when I got the car last Sept. But, PB has become virtually non-existent in the last few months. Had I made a complaint last Sept. (I did not) I would consider my issue resolved today.

It should not matter what software version PB is on. The issue is that the driver noticed it, on a vehicle released to the public. It speaks to the quality control of Tesla to have missed the problem at the time. Even if a future update fixes the problem and especially if it doesn't, it shows that there are concerns about QC at the company. It shows a pattern. Great if Tesla notices the problem and fixes it, but it should not have been released in the first place. Any issue is reportable.

 

[DWtsn]

It should not matter what software version PB is on. The issue is that the driver noticed it, on a vehicle released to the public. It speaks to the quality control of Tesla to have missed the problem at the time. Even if a future update fixes the problem and especially if it doesn't, it shows that there are concerns about QC at the company. It shows a pattern. Great if Tesla notices the problem and fixes it, but it should not have been released in the first place. Any issue is reportable.

I agree and I think it also goes to a bigger issue in that Tesla has a HORRIBLE feedback process to provide that QC oversight. The ability to communicate issues with Tesla is almost virtually non-existent. They say, as with the FSD Beta, that you simply "press the camera button to provide feedback." However, there are times that you need to provide feedback for something the car does, or fails to do, and a simple 2-minute loop of video and data will not convey what I need them to see or know about what occurred.

I have come to the understanding that driving with FSD Beta is akin to driving with a 15-year old. It can, and will, do very unexpected things. Much like when it arbitrarily tried to pull out in front of several speeding cars at an intersection the other day and when, last night, it tried to go blazing through a stop sign/flashing red light intersection at 60 mph that it routinely stops at on a daily basis. But there are other things you wouldn't even expect a 15-year old driver to do, such as slam on the brakes on the interstate for no reason, which mine almost routinely does. If there was a tried and true method to provide feedback to the Tesla engineers I don't think the NHTSA complaints would be so prevalent. But when all you have is a record button that may be looked at in the future is just unsatisfactory. I have spoken at length with my local Tesla Service Rep and they have "nothing to do with FSD Beta" and the feedback for it. They can't even provide information back to the Tesla engineers themselves I've been told. I think the concept of what the cars can and will eventually do is great but Tesla has to do better and communicating with owners and allowing us to communicate with them to provide a safe and quality product.

 

[RowdyMY]

I had two of my local State Troopers I know out here in east Texas do me a favor and let me "test" my FSD Beta. They positioned on the side of the road, emergency lights on, and I drove past them with the FSD engaged, in the right lane closest to their SUVs. My car did NOTHING!! It didn't slow down, didn't react, nothing!! Then, the other day, coming through Forney my car drastically slowed down twice in a mile-stretch for police with their lights on wayyyyyyy off to the side of the road!!! WTHHHhhhhhh? No sense to its' logic sometimes!

I'm guessing you conducted this 'test' during a period of daylight?

The slowing for emergency light logic is only enabled during darkness.

"If available in your market region, Model Y detects lights from an emergency vehicle when using Autosteer at night on a high speed road, the driving speed is automatically reduced and the touchscreen displays a message informing you of the slowdown."

 

[DWtsn]

I'm guessing you conducted this 'test' during a period of daylight?

The slowing for emergency light logic is only enabled during darkness.

"If available in your market region, Model Y detects lights from an emergency vehicle when using Autosteer at night on a high speed road, the driving speed is automatically reduced and the touchscreen displays a message informing you of the slowdown."

It was definitely a daytime test. However, there are many times my car does slowdown for "emergency lights" during the daytime. The most recent being a few days ago for a tow truck on the side of the highway on 635 in Dallas. I don't know if it was concerned about the flashing lights, yellow lights, the fact that there was a large vehicle parked backwards on the side of the highway, etc., but the warning was "Slowing for Emergency Vehicle" (or some such caution on the screen) and it was a daytime event also.