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JanG007

Active Member
Jun 16, 2019
1,276
528
Belgium
Off topic but that's why in some countries, police are typically unarmed: UK, Norway, Iceland, Botswana, New Zealand, Ireland...
Well, it all depends on the culture and specifics of a country/region. living in Europe, we are not accustomed to guns in general which is fine by me.

However in the US the views and situation are different which by the way I don’t (want to) judge at all.

My only point to use that expression was to convey the responsability part of using guns and by extend also AP/FSD.

It does an impressive job but it should be handled as a TACC/L2 system as stated by Tesla to avoid turning your car into a ‘potentional weapon’: use common sense and stay alert when using the system, if not, the only person to blame is yourself in my personal opinion.

I get the impression that the NHTSA tries to lure in Tesla to answer questions to be able to blame them And they don’t make sense to me. The system was not designed to handle these situations, however a few weeks after the NHTSA blew this up, the system got an OTA to handle these situation which they should applaud.

But that still doesn’t mean it should be used in those situations or to be relied upon at this point in time.

PS: if this was a finished product, the situation would, of course, be completely different.

intresting times, that’s for sure!!
 

tomas

Out of warranty...
Supporting Member
Oct 22, 2012
4,320
4,240
Santa Barbara/New York
“Finished product”?? Never. It is clear that part of Tesla’s legal strategy for AP/FSD and all descendants is to be perpetually in beta with requisite warnings. I applaud that. For goodness sakes the last car I had before my first Tesla would not even let you turn on the nav unless you were in park. Now they all do. Thank Tesla’s “drivers responsibility” attitude. Now all the others have to follow.

Agree that NHTSA should be thrilled that a manufacturer can push OTA updates to fleet. And maybe they are. Just because they ask for info doesn’t necessarily mean they have taken a position.

It would be a shame if they force us back to a coddled world where the lawyers stifle innovation.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,141
2,784
Seattle
Agreed. This is beyond nonsense. There is no current standard for this, so how on earth could they request a recall. It just highlights how nimble and ahead of the competition Tesla is, given they sent an OTA update to improve upon an issue that other manufacturers will continue to struggle with.
Exactly. Bureaucracy at its worst. They have forgotten that the PURPOSE of a recall was to inform customers to get the issue fixed by a dealer .. and with OTA updates that purpose is null and void.

I'm not against the NHTSA, but I do think they need to wake up to it being the 21st century.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,141
2,784
Seattle
It would be a shame if they force us back to a coddled world where the lawyers stifle innovation.
Are you sure we are not already in that world? Patents are issued for "inventions" that are so obvious its a joke. Patent trolls make it almost impossible to innovate by litigating these obscure and mostly idiotic patents. Every product comes with so many warnings in the fine print that you basically are advised that it can't be used for anything. Sounds like the lawyers have done a fine job lining their pockets.
 
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Dan D.

Member
Dec 7, 2020
854
1,061
Vancouver, BC
The NHTSA is really playing catch-up with ADAS cars.

There's a Sept 13 crash in Coral Gables involving a Model 3. Two occupants dead after hitting a tree and the car catching fire.


Could be the driver was just driving badly, could be it was on AP and they weren't monitoring it well, could even be the AP malfunctioned. The thing is how do you know? The NTSB and NHTSA try to determine these things. It's especially important when there is a defect or safety flaw. How do you determine what happened? Sure, video evidence, car logs, mechanical studies. You'd hope for open information exchange between the car manufacturer and the investigation, with information proffered without asking. It can't be easy to try to determine what might be important when you didn't make the car.

That's not to say any manufacturers are withholding, that's not been specified. But there are a lot of investigations going on and I'm not seeing many completed ones.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,141
2,784
Seattle
The NHTSA is really playing catch-up with ADAS cars.

There's a Sept 13 crash in Coral Gables involving a Model 3. Two occupants dead after hitting a tree and the car catching fire.


Could be the driver was just driving badly, could be it was on AP and they weren't monitoring it well, could even be the AP malfunctioned. The thing is how do you know? The NTSB and NHTSA try to determine these things. It's especially important when there is a defect or safety flaw. How do you determine what happened? Sure, video evidence, car logs, mechanical studies. You'd hope for open information exchange between the car manufacturer and the investigation, with information proffered without asking. It can't be easy to try to determine what might be important when you didn't make the car.

That's not to say any manufacturers are withholding, that's not been specified. But there are a lot of investigations going on and I'm not seeing many completed ones.
There is a LOT of FUD around that particular incident, including early statements by the police which are inaccurate and the usual click-bait headlines from the press.
 
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Dan D.

Member
Dec 7, 2020
854
1,061
Vancouver, BC
There is a LOT of FUD around that particular incident, including early statements by the police which are inaccurate and the usual click-bait headlines from the press.
I'm not interested in FUD and neither are the investigators. It's not like they share much with the public either so mostly we just end up with speculation until someone official gives a report. It's too bad we all have to wait months/years to find out.
 

tomas

Out of warranty...
Supporting Member
Oct 22, 2012
4,320
4,240
Santa Barbara/New York
Are you sure we are not already in that world? Patents are issued for "inventions" that are so obvious its a joke. Patent trolls make it almost impossible to innovate by litigating these obscure and mostly idiotic patents. Every product comes with so many warnings in the fine print that you basically are advised that it can't be used for anything. Sounds like the lawyers have done a fine job lining their pockets.
We ARE for the most part in that world! Which is why it is so commendable (to me) that musk must have said “sorry but I won’t play that way” to the lawyers, and as a result Tesla and every other mfg is pushing towards autonomy. And Tesla is filling the NHTSA’s docket… because they are pushing the envelope.
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,141
2,784
Seattle
We ARE for the most part in that world! Which is why it is so commendable (to me) that musk must have said “sorry but I won’t play that way” to the lawyers, and as a result Tesla and every other mfg is pushing towards autonomy. And Tesla is filling the NHTSA’s docket… because they are pushing the envelope.
Agreed... I think their approach is to get to a fait accompli before the regulators in their slow way realize what has happened.

I wonder what the statistics are for regular drivers hitting emergency vehicles?
 
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slomobile

New Member
Oct 24, 2021
1
1
Memphis
There is no safety hazard. NHTSA is trying to say that lacking a feature no car on Earth had was somehow an issue with Teslas specifically. Tesla introduced the feature so it becomes a non-issue and NHTSA still has the UAW's gun in their back, so they have to make another outlandish claim.
"Generally, a safety defect is defined as a problem that exists in a motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment that: › poses an unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety, and › may exist in a group of vehicles of the same design or manufacture, or items of equipment of the same type and manufacture."

There IS a safety risk. That is easily demonstrable by the Tesla accidents and every other vehicle that has ever hit an emergency vehicle. I would argue that the risk is reasonable, thus not requiring specific notice . That would be an appropriate answer to NHTSA.

Teslas have approximately the same level of acceptable risk of colliding with emergency vehicles as any model, including those which do not recognize emergency vehicles at all. Tesla is well within their rights to make safety improvements at any time. NHTSA was effectively given notice when the updates were rolled out and made publicly available. NHTSA is a public agency. They have the same obligation to monitor public notices that citizens do.

If the incidence of Teslas colliding with emergency vehicles is higher than all vehicles in general, that may indicate the risk becoming unreasonable. A real possibility given how lax some drivers are monitoring Auto Pilot. However, that crash data is curated by NHTSA, not Tesla. NHTSA has the mandate to make the reasonableness decision. They have no need for notice from Tesla.
 
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