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Mar 1, 2015
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Melbourne
Did the system override the driver? No, the system recorded no steering torque commands.
Here's the problem with Tesla's wording.

Your statement accurately reflects what happened. No more and no less.

Tesla's version ("hands not detected on wheel") is clearly designed to make people believe the driver did not have his hands on the wheel and was not paying attention.
 

hacer

Active Member
Apr 13, 2016
1,161
5,275
Clarksville, MD
Here's the problem with Tesla's wording.

Your statement accurately reflects what happened. No more and no less.

Tesla's version ("hands not detected on wheel") is clearly designed to make people believe the driver did not have his hands on the wheel and was not paying attention.
If we instead deny the "spin" and think that the driver was paying attention, with his hands on the wheel, as the car struck the barrier at full speed without turning the wheel or applying the brakes that would be suicide. The driver could have passed out or was otherwise suffering a medical emergency but then he would not have been paying attention, and likely wouldn't have control of the steering; that's the worst-case for Tesla but it's no different than ordinary dumb cruise-control which could have killed in the same way.

Tesla only looks bad because the autopilot system, in the absence of required driver oversight, steered into the barrier without slowing. So it's imperfect under conditions in which lots of other drivers have crashed into the same barrier.
 
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Chocomonsters

Member
Apr 8, 2015
32
38
Los Angeles
Here's the problem with Tesla's wording.

Your statement accurately reflects what happened. No more and no less.

Tesla's version ("hands not detected on wheel") is clearly designed to make people believe the driver did not have his hands on the wheel and was not paying attention.


Bottom line, we can not be certain if the driver had his hands on the wheel or not. Even if he had his hands on the wheel, we don’t know if he was or was not distracted.

Problem is that Tesla is trying to shape the narrative of the event they are not certain about.

Often I get AP flashing warning driving Tesla even with my hands on wheel. If something happens during that time, Tesla would release statement that my hands weren’t on the wheel.
 
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Chocomonsters

Member
Apr 8, 2015
32
38
Los Angeles
Maybe I have missed it somewhere, but where was the story about the vehicle that hit this same barrier prior to this accident? Did NTSB investigate that accident as well?

Maybe driver survived that crash? Maybe barrier did it’s job?

This crash made on NTSB radar as fatality occurred using a new technology.

People die from heart attack every day. When someone dies from heart attack using a new technology medical device, FDA / CDRH gets involved.
 

PhantomX

Member
Sep 29, 2016
477
430
Irvine
Tesla should look at the current NTSB investigation on this week's Southwest accident and learned how parties in the investigation should behave. Only NTSB is issuing official statements regarding the accident investigation, even though there have been plenty of speculations in the media about potential causes. All parties involved have sent representatives to work with the investigation, but no one outside of NTSB is talking investigation data or drawing conclusions. And NTSB will recommend an emergency airworthy directive to FAA if urgent safety matter needs to be addressed, which FAA will turnaround and enforce it quickly. This is how the process should work under an official accident investigation.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,486
42,178
Michigan
Bottom line, we can not be certain if the driver had his hands on the wheel or not. Even if he had his hands on the wheel, we don’t know if he was or was not distracted.

Problem is that Tesla is trying to shape the narrative of the event they are not certain about.

Often I get AP flashing warning driving Tesla even with my hands on wheel. If something happens during that time, Tesla would release statement that my hands weren’t on the wheel.

High level view: whether or not the driver's hands were on the wheel, they weren't recorded turning the wheel to avoid the collision. Tesla is certain of that. Not detected is a polite way of saying the data doesn't support the driver attempting to avoid the crash.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
13,486
42,178
Michigan
Tesla should look at the current NTSB investigation on this week's Southwest accident and learned how parties in the investigation should behave. Only NTSB is issuing official statements regarding the accident investigation, even though there have been plenty of speculations in the media about potential causes. All parties involved have sent representatives to work with the investigation, but no one outside of NTSB is talking investigation data or drawing conclusions. And NTSB will recommend an emergency airworthy directive to FAA if urgent safety matter needs to be addressed, which FAA will turnaround and enforce it quickly. This is how the process should work under an official accident investigation.

Its apples and oranges though. Southwest had a mechanical failure that should not have occurred. The failure shows the current inspection schedule/ type may not be adequate, so there is potential action to be taken.
Unless it is shown, via data that has not been presented yet, that AP causes the car in the Tesla crash to swerve at the last second, the system operated as designed. There are some things lane assist/FCW/AEB do well, and many things they don't handle. That operating spectrum is quite different from a jet engine that very much should not break apart during normal operation (even less so at cruise).

Tesla is already aware of the shortcomings and working on making the systems better so that they cover more cases.
 

hacer

Active Member
Apr 13, 2016
1,161
5,275
Clarksville, MD
Its apples and oranges though. Southwest had a mechanical failure that should not have occurred. The failure shows the current inspection schedule/ type may not be adequate, so there is potential action to be taken.
...
Plus Southwest is out there doing damage control Southwest Airlines Newsroom of it's own prior to final conclusions of the NTSB. For example, the cowling is supposed to be able to contain any engine failure from damaging the fuselage or fuel tanks. Yet here they are reassuring everyone that it's all about fan blades and that they've always been on top of it going above and beyond, even though the NTSB has announced that they haven't yet examined the maintenance records. So I'd say it's a total double standard that NTSB isn't unhappy with Southwest.
 
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