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Nuclear power

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by eledille, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    #1581 nwdiver, Nov 19, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    This was my 'favorite' part...

    'Among the surprising findings in the study, which covered 50 years of U.S. nuclear power plant construction data, was that, contrary to expectations, building subsequent plants based on an existing design actually costs more, not less, than building the initial plant.'

    Reminded me of the SNL skit where GM was asked how they expected to ever be profitable if they're losing money on every car sold and the response was 'We'll just have to sell more cars.... wait.... I don't know.'

    I really think it's a systemic problem. The industry is geared toward safety not profit. I'll never forget a company meeting where a co-worker complained that the admin process was 'too hard'. The CEO bluntly responded that he didn't care of something is 'hard'.... that's a problem. 'Hard' = 'Expensive'. Culturally they just don't care about cost. If a proposal decreased cost by 99% but also increases risk by 0.001% it's a no-go...

    One of my jobs was to spend an hour walking around the plant recording readings BY HAND and writing them down. Values that were available remotely in the control room that were recorded every 15s by a computer. But we didn't trust the computers.... because a human reading a digital display and writing the number down is somehow more reliable????
     
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  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    I'm ok with that; and if it makes the industry a loser to other less expensive technology, so be it.

    After all, it is not like the nuclear power industry has an enviable safety record so asking to cut safety corners is a BAD idea
     
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  3. Merrill

    Merrill Merrill

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    A good way to cut costs is to not build any more plants.
     
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  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    #1584 SageBrush, Nov 19, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    @nwdiver was the first to point out here that even if we ignore the issues of safety (at our peril), cost has killed nuclear. Less there be any doubt that no amount of cost cutting is going to save nuclear, take a look at the cost of utility PV in Spain

    About ONE PENNY per kWh
    Mix in equal amounts of wind at ~ 2 cents per kWh
    And about 20% battery at 10 cents a kWh

    And you end up with reliable, renewable energy at 2.27 cents a kWh generation cost. Some areas will require large geographic sharing via energy transmission. Add another 0.5 - 1.0 penny/kWh

    Nuclear is deader than dead, at ~ 12 - 20 cents levelized cost per kWh (and the taxpayer picking up the costs of accidents, maintenance and waste disposal)
    Coal is dead, at 4 - 8 cents levelized cost per kWh
    NG is dead, at 4 - 6 cents levelized cost per kWh

    Good riddance !
     
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  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    Arithmetic error -- should be 2.5 cents per kWh weighted average
     
  6. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    EDF confirms Hinkley Point B to be shut down earlier than planned

    EDF had expected the shutdown to take place after the start-up of Hinkley Point C, the first new nuclear power plant being built in the UK in a generation, which was originally due to begin generating electricity “well before 2020”.

    However, the scheduled start date has been delayed to between 2025 and 2026 owing to slow progress in agreeing with the government a guaranteed price for the electricity produced.
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    Has the UK taken a lesson from India and decided to 'renegotiate' the cost, after construction has started ?
    It would be interesting if the UK has the contractual right to eat its sunk costs and walk away
     
  8. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    I think this is "too big to fail" regardless of cost.
    They already have cost overruns with a generous subsidy.
    The project has a government contract that guarantees a set price of £92.50 for every megawatt hour of electricity produced and was “designed with the risks of a first-of-a-kind project in mind”, he said.

    The set price is high enough for EDF Energy to remain in line for healthy shareholder returns from the Hinkley Point project despite its rising costs.

    The Guardian understands that the latest cost increase brings EDF Energy’s internal rate of return down to between 7.6% and 7.8%. The project originally offered a 9% return on investment, which slipped to 8.5% after its 2017 cost review.

    However, the rising costs have raised questions over plans to fund a follow-up nuclear project at Sizewell C using a different financing model to Hinkley, which would put taxpayers on the hook for rising costs.
    Hinkley Point nuclear plant building costs rise by up to £2.9bn
     
  9. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

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    Ontario confirms its commitment to nuclear technology development - Nuclear Engineering International

    Doubling down.

    The Doug Ford conservative government here in Ontario literally forced some newly installed wind turbines to be removed and sites returned to original when they came into office, and cost $300M to break existing contracts for wind.

    Now they are doubling down on Nuclear.

    OPG plans SMR construction at Darlington : New Nuclear - World Nuclear News

    200 jobs just to run an SMR ... so much for "small".
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    #1590 SageBrush, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
    Perhaps I misunderstand -- is it EDF or the UK that wants to renegotiate the kWh cost ?

    If it is EDF that now realizes they want more money, it offers the UK a slightly underhanded way to get out of their nuclear hole: just let the construction and regulatory costs balloon until EDF begs to walk away. EDF may be close to that point already barring a hike in the remuneration per kWh if a long term contract was signed without an inflation index.

    Aside:
    Boeing taught me the meaning of a 'cost +' contract. Any government that enters into that sort of deal with the nuclear industry is insane.
     
  11. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they are asking to renegotiate now since they still have healthy margins. Of course, the way nuclear projects go is to continue to have increased costs and delays. If things get too tight, they may try to renegotiate. The UK government has been very generous to them in the past so they will probably cave.
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    #1592 SageBrush, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
    Someone is unhappy with the kWh cost. Is it EDF or the UK gov ?
    And as I said above, 7.6% ROI does not sound that great if inflation eats it away and revenue is anticipated to start 5 - 10 years late
     
  13. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    It should be ratepayers. They will be paying 92 GBP per megawatt hour. More than twice the cost of renewables.
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    I agree, but my question remains unanswered

    As an aside, I think 2x off-shore. 3x on-shore
     
  15. RubberToe

    RubberToe Supporting the greater good

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  16. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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  17. RubberToe

    RubberToe Supporting the greater good

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  18. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Entergy should pay $1B in refunds, damages to customers over faulty power plant, regulators say

    Entergy Corp. wrongfully charged customers over eight years for a nuclear power station that often malfunctioned and was repeatedly deemed unsafe, according to allegations in a federal complaint filed by three of the utility's regulators.

    The Louisiana Public Service Commission, the New Orleans City Council and the Arkansas Public Service Commission argued that $800 million Entergy spent to upgrade its problem-plagued Grand Gulf Nuclear Station in Mississippi hasn't improved the plant's safety record and subpar performance compared to other nuclear power plants.

    The utility also charged customers over $361 million for power it had to purchase when the deficient station was offline, the regulators said in the complaint to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. They argued that Entergy should refund customers the power costs as well as the cost of the 2012 upgrade, which was passed on to ratepayers.
     
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  19. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    Nuclear zealots kinda remind me of the Black Knight... 'It costs $15/w!' .... 'no it doesn't... '

     
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  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    I find it hard to fault that reasoning where nuclear is involved. But it sure does explain the high cost.
     

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