Number of PGE panels, do they approve? Make you remove some?

[h2ofun]

I have a family member looking at solar, PGE. They called PGE solar and were told that PGE does not determine panels and does not require you to take them off
if you put on too many. They said won't make you pull them off but you'll only make 2 cents a Kwh for excess.

So, this is not what I have heard others say. So is the above wrong? I did ask them to tell me what "excess" means?

 

[Tam]

I have a family member looking at solar, PGE. They called PGE solar and were told that PGE does not determine panels and does not require you to take them off
if you put on too many. They said won't make you pull them off but you'll only make 2 cents a Kwh for excess.

So, this is not what I have heard others say. So is the above wrong? I did ask them to tell me what "excess" means?

If it is a consumer-friendly utility, it would encourage private energy production and it would encourage excess energy transferred to the grid so they don't have to tell Californians to reduce their Air Conditioning usage and they don't have to pay for additional peak generators.

However, I think most utilities in the US treat private energy producers as competitors rather than helpers and they would do anything to squash their competitors: They make sure the calculation for historical usage matches with future panels to make sure homeowners won't be able to produce more energy than they need. Thus, I would not be surprised if a utility would demand to take the panels down to match with home usage in extreme cases of anti-competitive strategy.

 

[getakey]

Why would anyone buy excess if you only get $.02/kWh?

 

[h2ofun]

Why would anyone buy excess if you only get $.02/kWh?

One may not really know how much they will use. Get an EV car. Etc. Since I am waiting on PTO for my panels, I am going to find out quickly. And since my bill is totally different, I may find also that batteries really messed me up.

 

[brian.c]

Why would anyone buy excess if you only get $.02/kWh?

Because its much easier to add extra at the time of install versus adding an additional system or panels later. I would also say it depends on your utility and how much you pay for energy. I will produce an extra 1500-2000 kwh per year. I could care less if I even get paid for the extra. If I swap out some gas appliances for electric, I am already set. I made that mistake with my first pv system, not taking into account future energy costs, and future use etc.

 

[Merrill]

If it is a consumer-friendly utility, it would encourage private energy production and it would encourage excess energy transferred to the grid so they don't have to tell Californians to reduce their Air Conditioning usage and they don't have to pay for additional peak generators.

However, I think most utilities in the US treat private energy producers as competitors rather than helpers and they would do anything to squash their competitors: They make sure the calculation for historical usage matches with future panels to make sure homeowners won't be able to produce more energy than they need. Thus, I would not be surprised if a utility would demand to take the panels down to match with home usage in extreme cases of anti-competitive strategy.

Did not know there was a consumer friendly utility, certainly none in California.

 

[charlesj]

Why would anyone buy excess if you only get $.02/kWh?

This is not an exact science problem, how much you will use and generate in a year, what you will install in the near future that uses electric energy.
And, some areas in California have a community company like around Monterey county that buys excess generation at $0.06 kWh or more.

 

[holeydonut]

PG&E probably doesn't get involved in 99.999% of installations. But if you're in that 0.001%, you are f*$ke@

 

[charlesj]

I have a family member looking at solar, PGE. They called PGE solar and were told that PGE does not determine panels and does not require you to take them off
if you put on too many. They said won't make you pull them off but you'll only make 2 cents a Kwh for excess.

So, this is not what I have heard others say. So is the above wrong? I did ask them to tell me what "excess" means?

Not sure how much PG&E policy has changed over the years but production capacity of PV installation was 110% of previous years usage when I installed solar in 2012. Since then converted all LEDs, saved a bunch and changed some habits so now I am a bit over that 110% most years. No, they do not make you remove anything is the original plan was approved.
Not even sure they would even know if I maintain 1 - 20A PV system, around 3800/3900kW string and upgrade to better panels when time comes to clip my inverter much more often and end up generating more in a year.
As to excess generation and true up, as I posted above, some community energy systems will offer much more than PGE.
And, who knows what PGE will get away with in the future.

 

[h2ofun]

PG&E probably doesn't get involved in 99.999% of installations. But if you're in that 0.001%, you are f*$ke@

that is what I am hoping, but until I get my bill understood, ...

 

[h2ofun]

Not sure how much PG&E policy has changed over the years but production capacity of PV installation was 110% of previous years usage when I installed solar in 2012. Since then converted all LEDs, saved a bunch and changed some habits so now I am a bit over that 110% most years. No, they do not make you remove anything is the original plan was approved.
Not even sure they would even know if I maintain 1 - 20A PV system, around 3800/3900kW string and upgrade to better panels when time comes to clip my inverter much more often and end up generating more in a year.
As to excess generation and true up, as I posted above, some community energy systems will offer much more than PGE.
And, who knows what PGE will get away with in the future.

We have seen some post that PGE does know the max they will pay NEM credits for. Go over, and I though they got nothing.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Why would anyone buy excess if you only get $.02/kWh?

The PG&E public number for the net generation at the annual true-up is $0.02-0.03/kWh and it isn't clear to me how this is derived as it is far, far, far below the generation numbers for all TOU periods.

If you are with a CCA for generation then you generally get a higher number for your net generation. I am with Silicon Valley Clean Energy (SVCE) and they give you the full retail rate for the TOU period (winter/summer off-peak/partial/peak) that you generated. For my E-TOU-C plan this was $0.05110/$0.06598 for winter and is now $0.06134/$0.11425 for summer, plus an additional $0.008 for being on the 100% renewable GreenPrime plan. So $0.05910-$0.12225.

Helps with the ROI, but it isn't something that you are going to retire on.

When I add an EV and switch from a gas water heater to an electric hybrid I expect my current net generation will go to near zero, which is the real reason that I installed more panels.

 

[charlesj]

...

When I add an EV and switch from a gas water heater to an electric hybrid I expect my current net generation will go to near zero, which is the real reason that I installed more panels.

Depending on how much you are over generating in a year, may want to check how much that Hybrid water heater uses in a year and how easy it is to rewire for 240V by it. While it is much more efficient than standard, you may not have any leftover generation.

 

[Zabe]

Depending on how much you are over generating in a year, may want to check how much that Hybrid water heater uses in a year and how easy it is to rewire for 240V by it. While it is much more efficient than standard, you may not have any leftover generation.

Most hybrid water heaters have a heat pump and a resistance heater element. I am not sure why you would make a choice to just use more energy instead of getting 2 or 3 cents a kwh for excess solar. It would seem to me that 2 cents is better than no cents.

My 2 cents

 

[Redhill_qik]

Most hybrid water heaters have a heat pump and a resistance heater element. I am not sure why you would make a choice to just use more energy instead of getting 2 or 3 cents a kwh for excess solar. It would seem to me that 2 cents is better than no cents.

My 2 cents

I currently have a gas water heater and gas rates for PG&E I think are even worse than their electric rates. I ran the numbers for the latest Rheem hybrid heat pumps and I should save another $200-250 over the net generation credits. Plus reducing my CO2 footprint.

Switching costs will be offset by a SVCE rebate of $2,000 plus a federal credit of $400.

My biggest concern is adding the 240v 30A circuit. I have a sub-panel less than 20 feet from the water heater that has two open slots, so I'm thinking good thoughts.

 

[charlesj]

I currently have a gas water heater and gas rates for PG&E I think are even worse than their electric rates. I ran the numbers for the latest Rheem hybrid heat pumps and I should save another $200-250 over the net generation credits. Plus reducing my CO2 footprint.

...

The gas rate is per 100,000 BTU/ therms. a kWh is about 3400 BTU energy. So about 29 kWh is 1 therm.
With losses it may be 25 about? If 25 times per kWh rate is less than a therm of gas charge which it is not right now, electricity is way more expensive, I would think. Electricity would be $2.50 per therm @ 10 cent/kWh.

 

[holeydonut]

The gas rate is per 100,000 BTU/ therms. a kWh is about 3400 BTU energy. So about 29 kWh is 1 therm.
With losses it may be 25 about? If 25 times per kWh rate is less than a therm of gas charge which it is not right now, electricity is way more expensive, I would think. Electricity would be $2.50 per therm @ 10 cent/kWh.

Don't forget that PG&E's proposal to the CPUC would raise natural gas rates by +45% over the horizon of the proposed program. Nobody is talking about this 45% natural gas price hike in the news... they're all fixated on the +18% on the energy side.

PG&E proposes 18% to 45% rate hikes (electric and gas) beginning 2023 ending 2026 to address wildfire risk

Looks like PG&E believes it needs a few billion dollars to make their grid safe (edit, and improve infrastructure and better fund its pension), And since they can't make their operations more lean and intelligent, that just means it's time for rate payers to pony up...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Redhill_qik]

The gas rate is per 100,000 BTU/ therms. a kWh is about 3400 BTU energy. So about 29 kWh is 1 therm.
With losses it may be 25 about? If 25 times per kWh rate is less than a therm of gas charge which it is not right now, electricity is way more expensive, I would think. Electricity would be $2.50 per therm @ 10 cent/kWh.

PG&E gas tier 2 (anything over 0.49 therms/day) was $1.90021 in June. Off-peak net generation benefit for me is only $0.06934 so using your x25 would be $1.7345. My understanding is that the electric hybrids are more effective than gas, so I think your x25 is pessimistic.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Don't forget that PG&E's proposal to the CPUC would raise natural gas rates by +45% over the horizon of the proposed program. Nobody is talking about this 45% natural gas price hike in the news... they're all fixated on the +18% on the energy side.

PG&E proposes 18% to 45% rate hikes (electric and gas) beginning 2023 ending 2026 to address wildfire risk

Looks like PG&E believes it needs a few billion dollars to make their grid safe (edit, and improve infrastructure and better fund its pension), And since they can't make their operations more lean and intelligent, that just means it's time for rate payers to pony up...

teslamotorsclub.com

Which makes them cost benefit analysis even more compelling. I need to get this done soon.

 

[dareed1]

The gas rate is per 100,000 BTU/ therms. a kWh is about 3400 BTU energy. So about 29 kWh is 1 therm.
With losses it may be 25 about? If 25 times per kWh rate is less than a therm of gas charge which it is not right now, electricity is way more expensive, I would think. Electricity would be $2.50 per therm @ 10 cent/kWh.

I think that analysis leaves out the COP of a heat pump. For heating a house, a good modern heat pump uses about 1/4th of the electrical energy that resistance heating would do. For a water heater, especially a hybrid, I gather that the COP is poorer, but still better than 2. so instead of multiplying by 25, maybe multiply by 10 or 15.