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NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway

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Plus: if TM was not already working furiously to resolve vampiric losses (particularly in cold weather) they are now.
Well, I wish, but I am not so sure. From what I've read so far, it looks like Elon doesn't want to acknowledge any significant discharge in cold weather.

"Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk told CNBC on Monday that a recent New York Times article claiming that cold weather cuts the mileage on the company's electric car is bogus."

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I don't accept this. Anyone that expects the Model S to be a better ICE than an ICE is just plain kidding themselves. That doesn't mean that it can't be a better car. Basic operational knowledge is a prerequisite for using any machine. You can't play dumb and say, "well my ICE doesn't lose range over night so I didn't know." The technology is different, it deserves to used differently, that doesn't make it inferior. That does not equate to compromise.

Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. Imagine we lived in a world dominated by EVs and the ICE was breaking in. Imagine that a journalist had one of the first viable ICEs for a weekend of test drives. Imagine in his review he wrote, "I turned the car on this morning then made myself some breakfast, when I got down to the garage I found my cat dead at the door! Apparently I wasn't supposed to do that, something about carbon monoxide, but hey, this is a normal use case for any EV owner! ICEs just aren't ready for the real world until they fix this defect!"

Obviously you need to open your garage door before you turn the car on. Millions of people do this every day around the world. They don't view this as a "compromise". Plugging in your car when you know it is going to be sitting for any period of time is not a compromise, it's just different.
+1
Besides, I believe (hope) there will be wireless charging soon.
 
Possibly, who knows? Surely the point is that we can't expect anyone used to an ICE car to understand the subtleties of driving 200 miles in an EV. You understand range mode and plugging in at night but most lay people do not. The problem with a lot of EV marketing is that it implies that anyone can jump in and achieve the published range... you see lots of examples on TMC where owners have been shocked by the realities of EV driving.

Sorry, but I think when you do a test drive of new technology, and intend to publish an article in the NYT about it, an even more so if you actually own the car, you need to familiarize yourself to the degree that you know about the "Max Range" button in the UI. It's not like that would be a secret. The owner's guide (32 pages) has 2 easy-to-read pages about charging, with a large screen shot showing that button (and an explanation for it).

I don't know where you get the idea that you can just hop into an EV without familiarizing yourself with basic features of the car.
 
Everything is technically a compromise, it just depends on the compromise. For the ICE, you compromise on performance, smooth running, having to support OPEC including Venezuela and Iran, and paying more to get from point a to point b. For an EV, you compromise on your time and potentially the stress of finding a plug. Pick what's most important to you.
 
Sorry, but I think when you do a test drive of new technology, and intend to publish an article in the NYT about it, an even more so if you actually own the car, you need to familiarize yourself to the degree that you know about the "Max Range" button in the UI. It's not like that would be a secret.
You are assuming the driver understands the importance of the "Max Range" button on a 200 mile trip.... maybe he assumed it was an easy trip because it's just 200 miles which can be accomplished in an ICE without thought.

Even Elon seems to think 200 miles between SuperChargers is a stretch (assuming the latest NYT article is true) - "Mr. Musk called me on Friday, before the article went up on the Web, to offer sympathy and regrets about the outcome of my test drive. He said that the East Coast charging stations should be 140 miles apart, not 200 miles, to take into account the traffic and temperature extremes in this part of the country."
 
As a driver, you have to understand the machine you are driving. It is clear from the article that the reporter didn't understand the vehicle but, instead, relied on Tesla to tell him how to drive it.

Finally, I apologize if this point has already been made in this thread (I haven't read the whole thing), but I think it bears repeating. As far as plugging in at night, in the cold, it is very reasonable that Tesla would have assumed he would have figured that out...as it states, very clearly, in the not-very-long-so-take-the-time-to-read-it manual:

Page 16:
"Tesla strongly recommends leaving Model S plugged in when not in use."

Page 25:
"The most important way to preserve the battery is to LEAVE YOUR MODEL S PLUGGED IN when you're not using it"

Parking for the night is clearly "not using it." The reporter failed to follow the instructions in the manual, then faults Tesla in public media for screwing up and fails to recognize any of his own shortcomings. Faulty journalism in my book.

I'll step off the soap box now...

No one seems to have replied to Buzzbuzz or commented on this, so I am just bringing it to your attention as I think it is important. It shows that Elon has a strong case here and suggests to me that the reporter wanted to get stranded for the story.
 
There certainly seems to have been some assumptions made by both the reporter and Tesla. Those of us quite familiar with EV's take for granted things that the general population may not even be aware of. I get the impression the reporter was too afraid of fully charging the pack, and counted too much on range being restored through warming during use.

I kind of understand your thinking, but on the first Supercharge he claims to believe that he did a full charge. So why would he be afraid of it? Nothing bad seems to have happened. And speaking of that morning, he only charged up to 32 miles.

Perhaps he was trying to save time in order to make it sound great in the end, but the article shows no sign of such intentions. In that case, he should have realized that he needs to go back to square one before publishing an article about it.

It sounds more like he said to himself 'I'm going to turn off my common sense and act like I'm Mr Average Driver who spends his first time in unknown territory, and make a corresponding attempt at following instructions which I don't understand'. And that he thought he just doesn't want to wait at the chargers (and do some internet research perhaps on the car) because in an ICE you don't either, and after all they claimed it's a no compromise car so I can just blame them for that.
 
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Everything is technically a compromise, it just depends on the compromise. For the ICE, you compromise on performance, smooth running, having to support OPEC including Venezuela and Iran, and paying more to get from point a to point b. For an EV, you compromise on your time and potentially the stress of finding a plug. Pick what's most important to you.
Indeed. There are many compromises we have accepted and take for granted with ICE vehicles, we don't even realize it, until we drive EV's.
 
...

Any "road trip" requires advanced planning. When I was a kid in the 70s my parents took us out west for a long vacation and we drove from Denver to California using an AAA trip-tik (sp?). We got stuck in the middle of Yosemite in the middle of the night with no gas because my father "thought" there would be a gas station soon. No different than bad planning with an EV, and no we've never let my father forget!

I remember a a child that gas stations would give maps with all their stations marked out so you could plan your road trips. (and that they had "gas wars" and gave away free junk -but I digress) Here in CA there is now a gasoline station at near every exit along the 5 SF to LA. That was not the case even 10 years ago.

And the thing that gets me in all this is that a year ago 8 hours was too long to charge but now an hour plus 30 minutes is too long?

As I said in another thread, not only are road trips rare but cold weather road trips are even more rare unless you live somewhere that it's perpetually arctic. All this hoopla for a subset of a subset of normal driving.
 
You are assuming the driver understands the importance of the "Max Range" button on a 200 mile trip.... maybe he assumed it was an easy trip because it's just 200 miles which can be accomplished in an ICE without thought.

No, I'm assuming, as I pointed out in the previous post, that he was advised to do a maximum charge. Besides the online range calculator at teslamotors.com gives good information about the speed and temperature dependence of the range.

Even Elon seems to think 200 miles between SuperChargers is a stretch (assuming the latest NYT article is true)"

Yes, he spoke about that publicly in the Bloomberg interview (see previous links), he acknowledged that on the east coast the Superchargers are further apart than on the West Coast, and that they already plan to build more to reduce that distance.

He said that was the reason why they had to agree with him on those restrictions (no detour, reasonable speed, maximum charge), and that usually a more casual approach is possible.
 

I'd be willing to believe he wasn't aware at that point that he needed to switch settings to get a "maximum charge", but I blame that on him, not on Tesla.

Again you're assuming that the driver *really* understands "reasonable speed" and "maximum charge".

Yes, that is what I assume that he *should* understand, or at the very least learn after the fact, before eventually publishing the article (without at least reasonably reflecting on those facts, and causing people to think that he was told to freeze his toes off).
 
Possibly, who knows? Surely the point is that we can't expect anyone used to an ICE car to understand the subtleties of driving 200 miles in an EV. You understand range mode and plugging in at night but most lay people do not. The problem with a lot of EV marketing is that it implies that anyone can jump in and achieve the published range... you see lots of examples on TMC where owners have been shocked by the realities of EV driving.

And the reality is, it doesn't really matter.

This article and its aftermath isn't going to damage Tesla, or EVs. But it's a reminder to EV proponents and the industry regarding how EVs are positioned and marketed. Broder had a story only because the Model S- enabled by the SC network, has been promoted for its ability to do road trips. For now, that remains a counterproductive approach. Yes, experienced EV drivers (some of whom are also writers) could and have made similar - and even longer - trips with sufficient planning. But that's not what "road trip" conjures in the average American's mind; culturally, we think "Vegas on a moment's notice".

With all due respect, I disagree. I know you are not in favour of EV road trips, but they have their place. Many people I talk to have their interest piqued by the very fact that it is possible at all, regardless of what their daily driving routine is like. The EV movement needs its halo cars and demonstrations thereof. It's no different to the 1000 mile road rallies of yesteryear when most people were not taking cars beyond city limits - it still sold cars on their perceived reliability.

When I took a Roadster out by myself for the first time, my previous experience was twice round the block. My first drive was 175 miles. In fact Rachel Konrad was a bit nervous about letting me take it, but I convinced her I knew what to do to maximise range should it be needed.

Fast forward 9 months and no further EV driving, and I planned the 450 mile drive to beat the BBC with an afternoon's notice, while at a meeting in another country. I'd heard a rumour that there was a private HPC at Nottingham (there were 0 public ones at the time) so I asked another owner if he could confirm that and we were off. Once we knew the zip code it was just a case of joining 4 dots. A few days later, I was confident to attempt a 155 mile drive home through freezing fog with 135 miles ideal range, as the restaurant we were charging at wanted to lock up, it was getting late and we were getting bored anyway.

In this day of sat-navs and realtime status updates, planning this stuff should be no more difficult than punching in the destination and having the car routing you via available charging points. It should know gradients, weather and if points have power or are in use.

Having said that, why do I drive an Ampera? Because there is no charging point on my most common non-commute route. If the Wincanton CHAdeMO was available 24/7 I'd probably be a Leaf driver. As it is, the Ampera has proven its worth by being immune to broken charge points and the effects of cold weather.


(And yes, they also need to address whatever overnight range loss occurred, be more forthcoming about effects of climate, etc.)

This they do need to address. I am well aware of the effects of temperature on batteries and of the need to actively heat them. That's why we put them away from the walls of satellites. Nevertheless, if the overnight loss reported is true, I am genuinely surprised by the degree of loss here and would not have expected it myself. People seem to be forgetting that he supposedly parked with twice the range to get back to the supercharger - 65 miles lost is over 21 kWh or around 1.8 kW constant load for a 12 hour overnight stop. That's more than the power level I charge at in my garage!

It is not always possible to just plug in. There are 101 reasons why this might not be possible and Tesla needs to address this parasitic load (just as they had to with the Roadster). Besides, it's not green.
 
I know you are not in favour of EV road trips, but they have their place.
I'm in no way anti-road trip! Indeed I would say that the majority of my driving in the Roadster are trips that are beyond battery range and therefore qualify as "Road Trips".

I suspect the difference between the NYT driver and myself has something to do with 2.5 years, 40K Tesla EV miles, and an engineering background.

My issue is with the marketing that implies EV's can undertake American "Road Trips" just like those you take in an ICE. SuperCharger marketing just builds on that idea. IMO we should focus on what's different and get real about what an EV can and cannot do when in the hands of 'mainstream' ICE drivers.

Maybe the NYT driver was just an ordinary guy who didn't understand range mode or plugging in at night... maybe the marketing of a 300 mile range car just added to his delusion that a ~200 mile trip was easy.
 
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Indeed :)

But I think he had every right to expect a 90 mile round trip from the supercharger to the hotel, with 50% range margin, to be easy.

The problem Tesla has is their USP is they *are* the long range EV company. The customer base expects that. I'd argue that calling out the supercharger marketing is a little premature at this stage of that network's development, even if there are still wrinkles showing up in the California deployment too.
 
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