TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

NYT: Life After Oil and Gas

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by Robert.Boston, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,842
    Location:
    Portland, Maine, USA
    Life After Oil and Gas
    (a) Interesting read;
    (b) Interesting to see this kind of article at all in a major media outlet.
     
  2. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    6,890
    Location:
    Drammen, Norway
    Thought you cancelled your NYT subscription ;)

    Seroiusly, great read, thanks for posting!
     
  3. Thumper

    Thumper Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    579
    Location:
    Corvallis, OR
    The April issue of Scientific American has a great article titled "The true cost of fossil fuels". It analyses the EROI (energy return on investment) of various energy sources and mileage return on many energy sources. A generic electric car running from the current grid is twice as efficient as a petroleum powered car, and six times as efficient as a tar sand powered car! The article does not seem to be on their web site so I cannot link it but grab the mag. It is a worthwhile read.
     
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    14,792
    Location:
    CA CA
    Saw it online somewhere.
     
  5. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,842
    Location:
    Portland, Maine, USA
    It's behind a paywall.
     
  6. Objective1

    Objective1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Albany, NY, USA
    Terrible article. Keystone XL is a private project. If solar, wind, etc. could actually affordably replace the current mix of power sources, we would see lots of private money lining up to do it. It's time to stop subsidizing everything and see what really works economically.
     
  7. dadaleus

    dadaleus 4GETOIL P85#S70,FdrX,S85D

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    884
    Location:
    Solana Beach, California, United States
    #7 dadaleus, Mar 25, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
    Oil is massively subsidized in the US, much more so than renewables. Here's a pretty good graphic:
    http://www.eli.org/pdf/energy_subsidies_black_not_green.pdf
    Screen Shot 2013-03-26 at 1.19.46 PM.png

    If we removed all of these subsidies, at least renewable could compete on even footing. But even then, that wouldn't account for the massive health care and other costs borne by the government and society resulting from pollution from burning fossil fuels. Cap & Trade would start to move us in the direction of making polluters pay their own way (rather than making others suffer the costs), at which point I suspect renewables become a no brainer on the free market.
     
  8. drees

    drees Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,121
    Location:
    San Diego
    You're right. Let's start by putting a proper price on pollution since right now polluters do not pay for the damage pollution does to the environment.
     
  9. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    3,209
    Location:
    Rome (Italy)
    Agree 100%. But this should be done at global level not only in the USA.
     
  10. ModelS1079

    ModelS1079 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Suburban Boston
  11. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,455
    Location:
    Germany
    That however is a sure call to achieve nothing. Like, if politicians in Germany want to sabotage a new environment protecting legislation, they call for the issue "to be regulated first on an European level". And in hindsight they bash EU for "sticking their nose into things that we at the local level can regulate far better."
    </rant>

    US is a powerful economy. They can establish any subsidy and/or tax regime they want and compensate with tolls on imported/exported goods.

    E.g. if cutting subsidies rises the price of domestic coal by 25%, create import toll of 30% and redistribute the toll income and saved subsidies as tax benefits - just not only to coal consumers, but to every man and every business. This establishes a true signal in the US energy market that coal is getting more expensive, without impacting personal income or international competitiveness of energy intense industries.
     
  12. strider

    strider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,918
    Location:
    NE Oklahoma
    I agree. Let's take away all the subsidies oil companies get in the form of the US military in the Middle East, tax credits for oil companies, etc.
     
  13. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,842
    Location:
    Portland, Maine, USA
    I just had this nasty, sci-fi vision of a large mercenary force occupying segments of the Middle East, funded entirely by the big oil companies. Scary...
     
  14. William13

    William13 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    943
    Location:
    South Bend
    The Scientific American article is good with the exception of its information on nuclear energy. Unfortunately it gives nuclear an energy return on investment of 5. I checked all of its references. None really address nuclear. In the body of the article and in prior reading that I have done the number is anywhere from less than one (from opponents of nuclear) to 300 (from nuclear proponents). No reasoning or data given.

    The concept Energy Return on Investment EROI is a very important discussion. This compliments the above discussion of subsidies.

    Please remember that although figures don't lie; liars figure. We need all the numbers to be comprehensively evaluated. This is several man years of work and will still require best guesses. The methodologies will need to be spelled out with the raw data published to allow alternative views: CO2 costs, land degradation, acid ocean, careful air pollution illness cost analysis, mining deaths, ?war deaths?, military in Iraq, Kuwait, Persian gulf, deaths from falling off roofs,
     

Share This Page