Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
With AWD your wife will be safer and hopefully won't "off roads". AWD, winter tires and ESC is the maximum from the point of view of safety Al.
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Off-Road Ability of Model X?
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With AWD your wife will be safer and hopefully won't "off roads". AWD, winter tires and ESC is the maximum from the point of view of safety Al.
Al Sherman
It's about THIS car.
Yes Raffy, I agree. We're obviously just speculating at this point. It seems to me that Elon is not the type to build something almost as good, or just as good. I'm trying not to be attached to the outcome but I really believe that electric torque, great traction control, and AWD on the Model X is going to be better. The handling should be superb and safe.
Off topic but I'm still working on her as far as finalizing the reservation. I obviously have time. She's sold on EV's, loves my car, and agrees that the MX will be awesome. HEr issue is with the price. We can afford any car without hesitation. I take great care of my car and every nick and ding is painful for me. Dr. Sherman is at the other end of the spectrum. She uses her cars up in 4 or 5 years and gets another one. She takes 4 dogs almost daily to remote areas for long, wet, muddy hikes. She calls her car the "kennel" car and is not sold on the idea of spending 100k on the new kennel car. I know she'll love the MX and I'm ok with her getting a new one every 4 or 5 years. As I said, we have time.
K. Back on topic.
theganjaguru
Guru
That would be a kiss of death for the MX. Every SUV (Luxury or not) is subjected to an off-road evaluation. Will most people use their Cayannes or Range Rovers off-road? No. But they want to know they can.
I think that one reason the X has been delayed was to redesign the battery back and components to withstand emersion in water. I don't believe you can drive a model S through very deep water. Could a models s survive this?:
NEW Nissan Leaf water test!! - YouTube
At the very least TSLA needs to make sure the X can handle deep puddles and lite off-road duties. If the current pack configuration has issues with water emersion, I guarantee it is one of the reasons they have already delayed production.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Do you know this? Or is this speculation? I've heard different reasons, nothing about this.
theganjaguru
Guru
Wild wild speculation after reading this thread: Bad experience with flood waters and some of the battery threads.
Given the way I understand the the MS battery functions, there are components related to cooling and safety that would possibly be points of failure due to water penetration into critical components… I concede I am an armchair speculator as the only facts I have come from the forum above… But what I do know is that, the current MS drive train would most likely not fair well on an off-road test such as this: Porsche Cayenne Wading Deep Water - YouTube , this: Touareg Fording Capabilities - YouTube this Range Rover Evoque - Land Rover Experience Eastnor Castle - YouTube
They designed the MS to be the best car in the world. I am sure they are doing the same for the X. Could they really call the MX the best SUV in the world if it can't cross a foot of standing water?
What would make you think this would not be an issue or that the current Model S configuration is capable of fording water?
Electric motors don't rely on air to continue functioning in the same way ICEs do. So while it is possible that water would mess up some vital systems, it is possible to build EVs that run when fully submerged.
In fact, nearly all submarines use electrical power for their propulsion (some nuclear subs use steam instead).
The only thing you need air for in an EV is for people to breath.
In fact, nearly all submarines use electrical power for their propulsion (some nuclear subs use steam instead).
The only thing you need air for in an EV is for people to breath.
theganjaguru
Guru
That is my point exactly, from my layperson understanding of the TSLA battery, the TSLA packs cooling and safety features are points of failure if the battery is submerged as they could allow water to enter to a critical component of submerged pack. . I am not sure how you think how you think that I am inferring that it would be impossible to build a battery pack that could stand immersion into water. I am only stating the fact that you cannot guarantee a MS battery will function in situations where you are submerging the pack, such as fording a 20" of standing water. If I were designing the thing, I'd hold up production to make sure this was not an issue.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Most of that deep water fording is BS. Sure some SUVs might be able to make it through. But the very real possibility of hydrolocking your engine is not covered if it happens. There was some controversy over this with the Jeep Wrangler (it used to be rated for 30 inches of water, Jeep has since changed it to less than 19 inches):
http://jalopnik.com/5697449/why-did-a-new-jeep-wrangler-die-in-ten-inches-of-water/all
I don't think Tesla (or buyers) will care that much about off road ability. Most luxury SUVs today don't even bother to advertise the off road aspects and very few people care. People will care far more about on-road winter performance (that something luxury SUVs do advertise prominently).
http://jalopnik.com/5697449/why-did-a-new-jeep-wrangler-die-in-ten-inches-of-water/all
I don't think Tesla (or buyers) will care that much about off road ability. Most luxury SUVs today don't even bother to advertise the off road aspects and very few people care. People will care far more about on-road winter performance (that something luxury SUVs do advertise prominently).
TomT
Technical Maven
Agreed. It is the vast minority that, these days, require anything more than snow or slippery road capability out of their AWD SUVs...
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Last time I checked, the Model S battery was water cooled, so I don't know that water fording is a problem, for the battery at least.
theganjaguru
Guru
No luxury SUV is EVER bothers to advertise off road capabilities? …:roll eyes:
Jeep: Water Fording | Jeep® Grand Cherokee - YouTube
Land Rover: Land Rover LR4 Fording at the Land Rover Experience Driving School | Land Rover USA - YouTube
Porsche: Porsche Cayenne Off-road Test - SpeedingToday - YouTube (Note the comment of triple door seals)
BMW: x5s fording the stream - YouTube
Like I said earlier, and as you have also inferred. Most people will never take their Land Rovers off road (or into the snow for that matter). But many people purchase these kinds of vehicles because they have the ability to do such things…. though a very select few ever will. It's the same reason people only every drive their ICE 9 miles a day and could do with a leaf. The want the extra range to have just in case.
If they are building the MX to surpass a Land Rover or a Porsche, then it should be able to ford just as much water. IMHO to say oh we won't address that because "very few people care." would be sloppy engineering and product design. Elon has not yet left such an impression on me and so I see this as on possible reason (out of many) for a delay in production.
Not sure what to say about the jeep as you wouldn't be worried about "hydrolocking" an electric motor… Mostly because the water would effect an electric car differently from an ICE. Since you brought it up, I'd suggest you compare that video to any other fording videos I've posted or the ones on youtube where the vehicle successfully makes it across.. Every video I've seen with a successful water crossing is moving much slower and more consistent rate of speed speed. In comparison, that jeep was appears to be moving much faster. Is that why his vehicle failed and why jeep won't fix it? User error? It's a possibility?
As I said, My point is, that Tesla could be delaying production to ensure people have the confidence to know they can (though most likely never) drive through standing water. Sure you can call it unneeded, some might say the same thing about the the new Titanium undercarriage of the MS.
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… Close the MS battery is liquid cooled.. Water would freeze in cold places like Colorado
Read throughout this first:
Bad experience with flood waters
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Not to start an argument, but this statement is 100% not true by many standards. To exemplify my statement; Jeep has luxury models some at an upwards of $70,000 + and they always advertise off-roading. Land Rover advertises their luxury vehicles as off-roading vehicles in a majority of their commercials. They combine luxury comfort, driving dynamics, and off-roading techniques. They sometimes solely focus only on off-roading.
Now with all due respect the concept of posting a thread that involves electric cars and off-roading is not the smartest of ideas... All off-roading vehicles are sealed tight to reduce water damage. These vehicles can go fully submerged with modifications obviously... If an electric car encounters water especially in the Model S over a certain height, the car automatically turns off the car instantaneously. The battery is located on the bottom of the car and if water ever reached any of the wires carrying electrcity you could say good-bye to your new car. Also - if you took the Model S into a certain height under water you cannot come back when the water dries up and drive away freely. You have to call Tesla and have it sent out to a service center / have a ranger come out.
The Model X is basically the same design as the Model S so I do not believe in the "off-roading" advertisement because people will try and submerge the vehicle and that would not be good.
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Haven't researched this so asking the question blind. If Tesla classes the X as a crossover rather than an SUV does that change the need to demonstrate off roading capability? How critical is that difference from a marketing standpoint and would it handicap Tesla to classify the vehicle that way?
Tesla will definitely NOT advertise it as an off-roading vehicle and will focus on the crossover. Here is the difference between an SUV and a crossover, "For many car experts, the difference between the two is simple: A crossover is based on a car's platform, while an SUV uses the chassis of a truck." If they focus on an SUV then that will cause people to take it off-roading which may cause bad publicity.
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green1
Active Member
Crossovers are meant to steal the stationwagon/minivan market mainly, not the mudder offroad market. Also as has been pointed out earlier, very few people buy a 100,000 vehicle and go wheeling in it (I won't say none, but it's the exception, not the rule.)
That said, I think the X may surprise a bit in it's capabilities. I can't speak for what the ground clearance will be, but assuming decent, it will have some other inherent advantages.
Someone earlier stated that AWD wasn't good offroad, but before we accept that at face value we have to look at WHY AWD isn't good offroad, and it's mainly due to the limitations of your normal ICE vehicle. AWD involves one engine driving a centre differential which then drives both a front and a rear differential, which then drives the wheels. The end result of this setup is that with even one wheel slipping, all the power goes to that wheel, and you don't go anywhere. Various traction control methods can mitigate that to some extent, however there are limits to that. The X has no centre differential because it has two completely separate motors (something an ICE vehicle could never realistically have) which would put it right off the bat on par with vehicles with either a locking centre differential, or an "old school" four wheel drive with no centre differential (the kind you're not supposed to drive on dry pavement due to the inability to handle corners without the tires "skipping")
Add in a fancy traction control system and the ability to vary the output power of the front and rear axles independently and you could come out with quite the setup...
Now I don't expect it to compete with a lifted truck with big knobby tires and locking diffs all around, but I do think it'll be able to surprise people with what it will be able to do without getting stuck.
That said, I think the X may surprise a bit in it's capabilities. I can't speak for what the ground clearance will be, but assuming decent, it will have some other inherent advantages.
Someone earlier stated that AWD wasn't good offroad, but before we accept that at face value we have to look at WHY AWD isn't good offroad, and it's mainly due to the limitations of your normal ICE vehicle. AWD involves one engine driving a centre differential which then drives both a front and a rear differential, which then drives the wheels. The end result of this setup is that with even one wheel slipping, all the power goes to that wheel, and you don't go anywhere. Various traction control methods can mitigate that to some extent, however there are limits to that. The X has no centre differential because it has two completely separate motors (something an ICE vehicle could never realistically have) which would put it right off the bat on par with vehicles with either a locking centre differential, or an "old school" four wheel drive with no centre differential (the kind you're not supposed to drive on dry pavement due to the inability to handle corners without the tires "skipping")
Add in a fancy traction control system and the ability to vary the output power of the front and rear axles independently and you could come out with quite the setup...
Now I don't expect it to compete with a lifted truck with big knobby tires and locking diffs all around, but I do think it'll be able to surprise people with what it will be able to do without getting stuck.
> AWD involves one engine driving a centre differential which then drives both a front and a rear differential, which then drives the wheels. The end result of this setup is that with even one wheel slipping, all the power goes to that wheel, and you don't go anywhere. Various traction control methods can mitigate that to some extent, however there are limits to that. [green1]
Subaru Forester AWD is way ahead of all this. It can automatically lock diffs on either or both axles, lock the center diff if needed, and then brake whichever wheel(s) is called for. All seamlessly. And with suv-like ground clearance. Only times I've gotten stuck is when wheels poke thru a high ice shelf or too deep snow thus most of the weight is on the belly pan. Time to get out the shovel.
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Subaru Forester AWD is way ahead of all this. It can automatically lock diffs on either or both axles, lock the center diff if needed, and then brake whichever wheel(s) is called for. All seamlessly. And with suv-like ground clearance. Only times I've gotten stuck is when wheels poke thru a high ice shelf or too deep snow thus most of the weight is on the belly pan. Time to get out the shovel.
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green1
Active Member
I think you'd have to agree that an AWD with locking diffs is the exception rather than the rule...
The Forester AWD is all on-the-fly constantly changing. No user Positions to choose. With the auto trans there is no Hi/Lo Range (don't know about the manual trans). Five years ago Consumer Reports made a video of Subaru AWD going up ramps where all others failed miserably. The others may have improved their capabilities by now; I don't know - I have a Forester! With it I don't have to plow down the hill first with a tractor after a storm.
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