Off-Topic: From the "Tesla Hate Crimes" thread

[timvracer]

Not disagreeing with some of what you say, but expecting people to "convert" to avoid prejudice is no different than expecting a homosexual to "go straight" to avoid prejudice. When someone deeply believes something as part of who they are (Muslim, Christian, Jew), from their perspective, that is NOT a choice, it is deeply what they are. Which, btw, is very similar to how a transgender might feel, despite how they were born, they deeply feel inside different, and that they should be something else. For many, religion is NOT viewed as a choice they can change.

I get your technical point... so don't believe that it is lost on me, but it is not practically relevant. IMHO, manifested hate is wrong, and human beings should desire to provide protection from manifested hate based on one's personal characteristics whether it fits your definition of "choice" or not.

The reason religion is indeed "special" is that our world has a long and vibrant history of religious persecution, much more prominent than EV owner persecution. I think that compassionate humans over the years saw that, and wanted to protect people.

Fortunately, then, I base my position on evidence acquired through observation, rather than the portion of the population that agrees with it.

That aside, I doubt even that claim. There are certainly people who believe, in spite of all available evidence, that LGBTQ status is a choice(this isn’t really central to my point, so I won’t be addressing it further). But I doubt there are many beyond the truly sheltered who don’t believe religion is. A great many people change their religious beliefs at various stages in their lives. “Conversion” is a thing, and is actively pursued by most religious orders.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Which, btw, is very similar to how a transgender might feel, despite how they were born, they deeply feel inside different, and that they should be something else.

To be clear here, current scientific evidence shows that (at least many) people who are transgender are physically transgender. Their brain structure more closely resembles that of the gender they identify with than the one their sexual organs would usually dictate. It’s something that cannot be changed without changing the physical structure of their brain. It’s not despite how they’re born, it’s the way they were born(or, at least, the way they physically are now).

By contrast, religion is not a physical or unchangeable part of a person(as evidenced by the fact that it does change in many people).

Anyway, I’m not saying people don’t deserve protection; hate crime laws don’t make anything illegal that isn’t otherwise. Just that it’s a bit odd to me that all the other classes are inherent parts of a person(that can manifest without any outside social pressure) except religion. If that’s not odd to you, *shrug*, carry on.

 

[Rockster]

Not about not protecting people. I just find it strange that religion gets that special consideration. No other thing you just choose/believe/like gets such protections.

The other special protections make sense, they're things that are inherent that a person can't choose or change. Treating those differently from, for example, which shirt you decide to wear, is reasonable.

You're talking about the concept of immutability as it pertains to individual characteristics. I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure federal civil rights laws define the term "immutable" in this context as something that "cannot be changed or should not be required to be changed." The question is therefore not what's possible for a person to change but, rather, what it is right or reasonable to expect them to change. While religion can be changed or renounced, it's not something that one should have to do as a condition of, say, being served in a restaurant.

Accordingly, there are characteristics are possible to change but are nonetheless legally considered to be immutable and are therefore criteria for protection under the law. This thinking extends to the definition of hate crimes, where a person is targeted based upon something that they can, but should not be required, to change.

(Sorry to broaden the thread even further.)

 

[Dr. J]

By contrast, religion is not a physical or unchangeable part of a person(as evidenced by the fact that it does change in many people).

There is a lot of scientific research into why the human brain is enthralled by the God idea, and it appears to be an evolutionary adaptation. I'm not saying that people can't change, and certainly many people do change from one set of beliefs to another over a lifetime, and many people disbelieve entirely.

I think hate crime law arose out of anti-discrimination law generally, which itself arose (in my view) from actual experience of discrimination. The reason the U.S. needs a law outlawing discrimination based on religion is due to the historical experience of the adherents of one religion (the one true religion) persecuting adherents of another (minority) religion. It's not because the irreligious are persecuting the religious, as some in the current political debate like to imagine.

To bring it back on topic, I think the thread would be better entitled "Tesla hate." While some of the incidents discussed are crimes, they are not on the order of crimes generally carrying penalties of actual hate crimes.

 

[electricar]

I love it - clowns in trucks made in Mexico with American flags in the back hating on cars made in America

 

[DrMike]

Had similar experiences back in the day when I owned both a ragtop classic Corvette and a beater Volvo 240. Switching back and forth between those two during the day produced some notable moments of... different treatment.

There's a lot of poor treatment from those who perceive themselves as disadvantaged toward those who are perceived as well-off. Note some of the flyers near the Tenderloin in San Francisco or around Portland as gentrification continues. Downtown Los Angeles and areas adjacent also have some tension. The flyers actively encouraged damaging nice cars and then some.

I don't know that we're going to see the rich as a protected class anytime soon, and therefore "hateful misdemeanor" may be more appropriate than "hate crime" when it comes to bigoted or otherwise ignorant behavior directed toward Teslas. Depending upon the amount of damage caused, of course.

One of the ironies being that one can acquire a non-AP, non-salvaged Tesla all day long now for $30K. $35K after taxes and fees in California. Meanwhile, someone told me the average new car sold in America now costs $36K. Hard to believe but the point remains: Reality and perception can be two very different things.

Another irony being the whole Made in America refrain. Never mind that you can't buy a TV made in America anymore. Without getting into the tired lawyerly nitpickery of the definition of "made", most vehicles made in America have a significant percentage of imported parts. "Foreign" cars are made in multiple states (see BMW). Gotta love the low-information citizens who evidently believe that critical thinking is optional. Collective national embarrassment.

Very well said all around. It's all a good illustration of a fundamental societal problem - we don't teach people how to think when they are in school. We should be helping them build core reasoning skills, be skeptical of claims, etc..

On the issue of the class warfare aspect of this: the ironic thing is that most of the Tesla hate seems to be coming from people who generally support our current President (I'd be shocked if anyone who "rolls coal" doesn't), who is pushing for more upper class tax cuts. They have no problem with that apparently, but they will still hate an individual who has an expensive car. Bad logic skills.

 

[AndrewTX]

Very well said all around. It's all a good illustration of a fundamental societal problem - we don't teach people how to think when they are in school. We should be helping them build core reasoning skills, be skeptical of claims, etc..

On the issue of the class warfare aspect of this: the ironic thing is that most of the Tesla hate seems to be coming from people who generally support our current President (I'd be shocked if anyone who "rolls coal" doesn't), who is pushing for more upper class tax cuts. They have no problem with that apparently, but they will still hate an individual who has an expensive car. Bad logic skills.

I don't think this is anything beyond a front in the Red/Blue culture war that's tearing the US apart. Tesla has been held up as a cultural elitist/crony capitalist example by right-wing media for years now.

 

[DrMike]

Not disagreeing with some of what you say, but expecting people to "convert" to avoid prejudice is no different than expecting a homosexual to "go straight" to avoid prejudice. When someone deeply believes something as part of who they are (Muslim, Christian, Jew), from their perspective, that is NOT a choice, it is deeply what they are. Which, btw, is very similar to how a transgender might feel, despite how they were born, they deeply feel inside different, and that they should be something else. For many, religion is NOT viewed as a choice they can change.

I agree that many do not see it as a choice. When someone is born into a very religious family, that brain washes them from birth to put blind faith in a book people wrote thousands of years ago, their upbringing has mostly taken away their ability to make a choice. Technically they can make a different choice - but when they have been specifically trained to avoid thinking logically, there isn't much hope of them making a different choice.

Agree with everything you said except oversized American flag. : ) If they only knew my motivations for driving a Tesla--sure the environment is high on the list--but followed closely by ending meaningless wars over oil saving American lives, and supporting American workers. I'm no less a patriot than these guys blowing smoke at me.

But how does sticking a giant flag on a truck make a person more patriotic? It just makes them a douche.

In some rural parts of the country, it seems like people think that if you don't have at least one giant flag waving behind your truck or Harley (those are the only acceptable options of course) then you must be a terrorist.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Same happened to me driving through Georgia. Some jacked up truck with an oversized US flag which reduced his already dreadful MPG to something criminal I'd imagine. At first I felt sorry for the guy because I thought he had blown a piston ring. When I realized what was going on I just burst out laughing. I mean really? I don't think it was the response the dude was lookin for.

I've never seen so many American flags flow on the back of trucks as I do now days.

Which is odd because we're not in a state of war (at least not anymore than the new normal)

There hasn't been any attack on us that's fresh in memory.

So what's with the show of patriotism? Or is it really patriotism?

Why is it so over the top? I'm starting to see more, and more of them have two flags because apparently one wasn't enough.

Why only trucks?
Why only white male drivers?
Why mostly rural areas that voted for Trump?

I can't help, but think it has nothing to do with American values and the American way of life.

Instead it seems mostly to send a message that the driver of that vehicle is a Trump supporter, and wants everyone to know he's fully on board with "America First" policies.

An average American that takes pride in an American made product is going to be appreciate a Tesla, and that it's made largely in the US by American workers.

It's getting to the point where I might make my own symbol. Where it's still an American flag, but it's under the Earth to signify Earth first. The symbol will be a small window sticker since I don't see any reason for such a massive display of what I stand for.

 

[timvracer]

I agree that many do not see it as a choice. When someone is born into a very religious family, that brain washes them from birth to put blind faith in a book people wrote thousands of years ago, their upbringing has mostly taken away their ability to make a choice. Technically they can make a different choice - but when they have been specifically trained to avoid thinking logically, there isn't much hope of them making a different choice.


But how does sticking a giant flag on a truck make a person more patriotic? It just makes them a douche.

In some rural parts of the country, it seems like people think that if you don't have at least one giant flag waving behind your truck or Harley (those are the only acceptable options of course) then you must be a terrorist.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

Your hate shows through just perfectly and transparently... nothing needs to be added.

 

[DrMike]

Your hate shows through just perfectly and transparently... nothing needs to be added.

Yup.

I hate people who use an over-the-top display of nationalism to build themselves up and manipulate other people.

When you look at this picture below, do you think "man, he really loves this country"?

What I see is a snake oil salesman who has learned how to manipulate people.

 

[DrMike]

I've never seen so many American flags flow on the back of trucks as I do now days.

Which is odd because we're not in a state of war (at least not anymore than the new normal)

There hasn't been any attack on us that's fresh in memory.

So what's with the show of patriotism? Or is it really patriotism?

Why is it so over the top? I'm starting to see more, and more of them have two flags because apparently one wasn't enough.

Why only trucks?
Why only white male drivers?
Why mostly rural areas that voted for Trump?

It isn't patriotism. It's fierce nationalism. All authoritarians have managed to seize power by stoking nationalism in their followers. It's a "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. They are using the flag to try to make it seem that anyone who disagrees with them must be against the country.

I can't help, but think it has nothing to do with American values and the American way of life.

Instead it seems mostly to send a message that the driver of that vehicle is a Trump supporter, and wants everyone to know he's fully on board with "America First" policies.

Exactly. That's what nationalism is. Blind support of an authoritarian leader, under the guise of supposed patriotism.

A person doesn't need to have a giant flag on their vehicle to love their country. The purpose of the giant flags is to try to make the case that "I am a real American, and if you disagree with me, then you are against America".

Oddly, many of the trucks and houses I see with giant American flags also have Confederate flags. They don't seem to see the irony of that, that the Confederacy fought against America. Flying a Confederate flag is flying a flag symbolizing a move to separate from America in order to be able to continue holding people as slaves based on the argument that the color of their skin makes them inferior. Thus, my comment "it shows that they are a douche".

 

[cpa]

For decades (going back to the '70s if I recall correctly) there have been groups of people who have a very nationalistic view of the United States. It may have started with the Sagebrush Rebellion where many people believed that the United States Government could not own any lands except for courts, forts, and ports. They felt that the land was theirs to exploit and use as they saw fit. This attracted motley groups like White Supremacists, Sovereign Citizens, ranchers, loggers, and others who lived among the sagebrush in the Great Basin. It extended to other locations like the deep South and Appalachia where their ways of life had started to erode due to economic forces.

These individuals have a distorted and misguided view of our Constitution. They conflate the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. Many of them have adopted the mantra, "We The People." Some fly the "Don't Tread on Me" (Gadsden) flag with the coiled snake. It has become a symbol of anti-government and government overreach. They are ardent, perhaps extreme supporters of an unfettered Second Amendment. They are xenophobes and racists.

Yes, they proclaim "patriotism" by flying oversized American Flags from their pick ups. But as was correctly pointed out above, they are not patriots. They are extremist nationalists who now feel emboldened by the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

 

[DrMike]

I don't think this is anything beyond a front in the Red/Blue culture war that's tearing the US apart. Tesla has been held up as a cultural elitist/crony capitalist example by right-wing media for years now.

I do agree about how the right wing media has been portraying Tesla. I think part of it likely also ties in with a disdain for "intellectualism" and science. Part of it may also stem from the view that climate change is a myth that we scientists are spreading to somehow line our own pockets, and force the "good" Americans into having to cut back on their energy use. When I've asked people why they think we scientists are trying to make them cut back on their energy use (if we really supposedly know that climate change is a hoax), the responses I generally get are that we are just trying to cripple our own country. When I ask "why would we want to do that to our own country?", things really start getting quite fantastical (and generally revolve around giant conspiracies).

Of course, it must also really piss them off that an electric car can blow away most "muscle cars".

 

[DrMike]

For decades (going back to the '70s if I recall correctly) there have been groups of people who have a very nationalistic view of the United States. It may have started with the Sagebrush Rebellion where many people believed that the United States Government could not own any lands except for courts, forts, and ports. They felt that the land was theirs to exploit and use as they saw fit. This attracted motley groups like White Supremacists, Sovereign Citizens, ranchers, loggers, and others who lived among the sagebrush in the Great Basin. It extended to other locations like the deep South and Appalachia where their ways of life had started to erode due to economic forces.

These individuals have a distorted and misguided view of our Constitution. They conflate the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. Many of them have adopted the mantra, "We The People." Some fly the "Don't Tread on Me" (Gadsden) flag with the coiled snake. It has become a symbol of anti-government and government overreach. They are ardent, perhaps extreme supporters of an unfettered Second Amendment. They are xenophobes and racists.

Yes, they proclaim "patriotism" by flying oversized American Flags from their pick ups. But as was correctly pointed out above, they are not patriots. They are extremist nationalists who now feel emboldened by the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

And to me what is most bizarre is that these people who have been paranoid about government overreach in the past, are now supporting an administration that is pushing towards authoritarianism, and massive government overreach. Trying to block California from being able to have its own emissions regulations is a perfect example of how the "states' rights" mantra is really not something they believe in at all. They are really all for massive government overreach - as long as it is overreaching to do the things they want - kick out foreigners who aren't from Europe, build a stupid Space Force (I'm guessing that the next thing will be "Monster Truck Force", and his supporters will go crazy for it), ban muslims, etc..

It's exactly the same as what has happened in the past when other democracies have been shifted to totalitarian regimes.

Imagine if in school, instead of just having kids memorize arbitrary trivia about history, they actually had discussions about how important events in history happened - like how Hitler was able to shift a democratic country into a dictatorship, with the will of the people behind him (as he blamed all of Germany's problems on minority groups like Jews).

Imagine if we taught kids to recognize our tribal instincts and how those instincts impact our behavior, so that they would be less prone to falling for fear mongering and isolationist rants.