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- Thread starter Drrobmiller
- Start date
What is the logic that vision should have similar or better performance? I mean, we hope that's true, but what is the logic you have to know it will be true or that it's even likely? What if it does better in some places and worse in others, how will you judge that?
I fully agree getting to vision only that works equally to what we have today would be a huge step. I'll acknowledge that if it happens. I just think it's reasonable to be skeptical until any data exists in the real world beyond Elon tweeting that it will be fire once they finally get it working (he has already said it doesn't work as well as radar as of a month ago).
I also think none of us will get to experience the change to vision only for a very, very long time. All my read is that they aren't touching "production AP" (aka highway) anytime soon, so nobody will actually be able to compare changes in a domain where they have experience. We'll just get to experience city streets beta with vision only but no idea how it behaved with radar. In another thread @mspisars is claiming they are keeping highway and city codebases separate in order to avoid regulations- has Elon claimed they are touching highway code at all?
I'd argue this makes it clear they have no intention of touching highway code, which is already superhuman:
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Honestly, if Vision only is only AS good as vision+Radar, I won’t be impressed. If the end result is continued phantom braking and blinding by the sun, we will have ended up in the same spot without redundancy.
Vision Only really has to be better. But I agree with you that we have no guarantee or proof that removal of radar is going to be a huge improvement for regular AP. We have to wait and see what is actually delivered. Elon’s hyping and tweets mean nothing.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Well, we know it'll lose some capability without radar. Specifically seeing through obsuring weather and seeing a car ahead of a car ahead of you if vision is blocked.
But it might gain enough benefits (loss of phantom braking, and ability to properly react to stopped objects partly in your lane) that NET safety is better than the system with radar.
Elons most recent tweet says vision only is coming to the general US fleet next week.
(presumably only for existing general release features like NoA on highways and basic AP/TACC)
mikes_fsd
Banned
Here you are claiming that what Tesla is calling FSD beta is now what Tesla means it to be.
You do not have to go far to learn that FSD Capability at Tesla was from birth going to start out as an L2 system.
I know reading is hard, so I got the crayons out for you, maybe it will help you finish reading.
Now, I only speak 3 languages fluently ... one more mediocre, maybe I am misunderstanding the English language, lets step through this together.
Some definitions:
Feature - a distinctive attribute or aspect of something.
Future - the time or a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing; time regarded as still to come.
Supervision - the action of supervising someone or something.
Dependent - contingent on or determined by.
FSD Capability is described as being multiple features that will be introduced over time and will require supervision initially, hence "use of these features without supervision is dependent on..."
Are you still with me?
powertoold
Active Member
I don't enjoy arguing matters of opinion. It goes no where in the end.
We'll just have to wait until v9 is released Soon(TM) to make any judgments about FSD progress.
I think people who use AP or fsd beta routinely are best suited to see what the future holds. Again, just a matter of opinion though.
We'll just have to wait until v9 is released Soon(TM) to make any judgments about FSD progress.
I think people who use AP or fsd beta routinely are best suited to see what the future holds. Again, just a matter of opinion though.
Thanks. Interesting how they are willing to risk that on what is already superhuman highway performance, and how on a safety critical system they are changing their message tweet to tweet. I'll set a reminder to see it next week
The reddit thread on it coming "next week" is a pretty interesting study on how few people believe Elon in any way anymore. All "haters" I am sure.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
What you just quoted isn't me doing that at all.
Just the opposite it's pointing to what Tesla has actually said about the city streets feature in the CA DMV docs.
The "thing" that Elon is calling "FSD Beta" is simply the Navigate on City Streets feature. Nothing else.
That is literally what Tesla says in the CA DMV emails
You do though- because prior to about March 2019 FSD was sold as an (at least) L4 system.
You've had this pointed out you many times. So it seems reading IS hard for some.
Is English not one of them?
powertoold
Active Member
Full self driving = can fully navigate city streets by itself.
Full self driving != Unsupervised
The end goal is to have it be unsupervised.
Unsupervised FSD is a subset of FSD.
It's sort of like a student driver. The teacher is supervising and may "take over", but the student is fully driving the car.
A student driver is a subset of full human driver.
Full self driving != Unsupervised
The end goal is to have it be unsupervised.
Unsupervised FSD is a subset of FSD.
It's sort of like a student driver. The teacher is supervising and may "take over", but the student is fully driving the car.
A student driver is a subset of full human driver.
mtndrew1
Active Member
At this point I would be satisfied seeing any public video of anyone driving with V9 and/or an interesting general release firmware update with a new UI or feature updates.
I figure they’ve been frantic getting the Model S firmware done and scrambling to port stuff to whatever chips they can get their hands on to keep production rolling but it sure has been sleepy on the public firmware front for many months now.
I figure they’ve been frantic getting the Model S firmware done and scrambling to port stuff to whatever chips they can get their hands on to keep production rolling but it sure has been sleepy on the public firmware front for many months now.
mikes_fsd
Banned
Ahh, that old trope...
Lets look at the October 2016 version, shall we:
I hope you know how to use a dictionary...
But "each element" is no different than "features" - and it is clearly described as they (the elements/features) will be released independently (i.e. not all at once).
Extensive software validation is more ambiguous than the newer wording - but is not contradictory to the newer wording.
It seems you really love to dig your own grave. Stop digging.... or keep digging!
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Cheburashka
Active Member
Wasn't the subscription to FSD a "sure thing" to happen this month?
Hard to tell what bs Elon is spewing these days, did he also say that we're all getting vision-based only AP next week that will solve phantom braking?
Hard to tell what bs Elon is spewing these days, did he also say that we're all getting vision-based only AP next week that will solve phantom braking?
Yep.
Didn't you hear? Phantom braking was solved in October 2020:
powertoold
Active Member
I personally don't experience phantom braking anymore on highway. The only "phantom" braking I experience nowadays on highway is when there's a merge lane upcoming and the car decides to slow down for the adjacent cars too soon. Sometimes this sort of thing seems like phantom braking if you're not looking at the visualization.
I wonder if you guys actually use AP? How do you even assess?
mikes_fsd
Banned
Subscription wasn't in the 2016 or the 2019 description of FSD.
So, IF you get it, that is just like Sentry Mode and Dashcam, cherry on top.
Or are you now going to claim that Sentry Mode was promised to you as well? Or it did not come fast enough for the people that had their cars broken into in SF and blame that on Tesla as well?
GD the trolls are getting desperate!
Cheburashka
Active Member
I get it all the time. I think it has definitely improved for overpasses, but often I get it for seemingly no reason at all or if there's a blinky light on the side of the road, stop sign on adjacent road, or just something that I can't see at all.
mikes_fsd
Banned
A lot of these naysayers do not use AP, and a lot of the ones that even own FSD have barely driven since covid lockdowns started...
Cheburashka
Active Member
Huh? If Musk doesn't want people to complain about missed timelines, then he shouldn't be giving them in the first place.
mikes_fsd
Banned
FFS, you are getting features that you never were promised at sale and they are late by a month (or 6) and you're still whining?
At least with FSD, the delays are for something that was promised, and that is something worth bitching about.
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