OFFICIAL BUTTON WATCH

[AlanSubie4Life]

So it turns out the S refresh (likely not just plaid) has IR leds along with the camera DMS.

I have a few questions about this:

1) Why don't these IR LEDs show up in the prior picture? Is hiding IR illumination devices behind plastic a "thing?" (I don't know.)

2) Why are they not placed symmetrically around the camera lens?

3) Why are they visible in this picture? Is this a thing for cameras on phones; they image IR effectively in broad daylight?

You can see where I am going with this.

The camera positioning is much better than Model 3, though. It's not behind the mirror!

In any case I wouldn't be surprised if there were IR illumination added...somewhere.... Though long exposure seems like it would work basically all the time with current technology (at the expense of latency). I'm just confused about what we're looking at here.

 

[acarney]

So it turns out the S refresh (likely not just plaid) has IR leds along with the camera DMS.
So there's a non-zero chance that the camera DMS in every car up to this point is insufficient.

The irony of course is that no camera is needed for actual FSD. L4 doesn't need a camera. Only L2/L3 do. So Tesla is spending more money to make L2/L3 work better, which is kind of a hint that they know any kind of L4 is really far off.

So yeah, a car without cameras or not good enough cameras has the HW for L4 FSD. You just can't have any of the software in-between until it's qualified as full L4.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/o1ntcs

This could also aid in some type of "face ID" style detection. Sounds like Musk would like Tesla to recognize who is driving it and be able to adjust the HVAC, playlist, nav to a custom setting for them without any intervention. It also might aid in that "magic" guessing on if you want to reverse or go forward. Possible camera sends some imputes to see if you're turning your head to look behind you?

 

[gearchruncher]

Sounds like Musk would like Tesla to recognize who is driving it and be able to adjust the HVAC, playlist, nav to a custom setting for them without any intervention.

Like the cars already do today based on the key/phone used to open or "start" it?

It also might aid in that "magic" guessing on if you want to reverse or go forward. Possible camera sends some imputes to see if you're turning your head to look behind you?

This would not require a 3D camera like Face ID does. Driver recognition doesn't either unless you are using it to actually secure data and you need to be protected against a photo of someone instead of their actual face, which is not needed here. Most facial recognition surveillance systems rely on standard, monocular, ambient lit cameras, kinda like a human does

IR LED's are generally just used so your camera can still see at night without humans seeing it as illuminated.

 

[acarney]

Like the cars already do today based on the key/phone used to open or "start" it?

This would not require a 3D camera like Face ID does. Driver recognition doesn't either unless you are using it to actually secure data and you need to be protected against a photo of someone instead of their actual face, which is not needed here. Most facial recognition surveillance systems rely on standard, monocular, ambient lit cameras, kinda like a human does

IR LED's are generally just used so your camera can still see at night without humans seeing it as illuminated.

Ya, I never understood why Musk didn't just tie it to the phone... unless he's got an even more grand plan one day of not needing the phone or something.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

IR LED's are generally just used so your camera can still see at night without humans seeing it as illuminated.

Where are the IR LEDs?

 

[gearchruncher]

Where are the IR LEDs?

In the refreshed S, to each side of the interior camera. That's the theory for what the two dots are in the image I linked earlier today.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

In the refreshed S, to each side of the interior camera. That's the theory for what the two dots are in the image I linked earlier today.

My theory is that is lens flare, or similar - I don't know all the technical terminology of lens artifacts (but I could definitely be wrong...I'm just asking because I actually want to know how they covered these LEDs and made them invisible, if that is what they did - I haven't seen it before, but not saying it is not possible):

OFFICIAL BUTTON WATCH

So it turns out the S refresh (likely not just plaid) has IR leds along with the camera DMS. I have a few questions about this: 1) Why don't these IR LEDs show up in the prior picture? Is hiding IR illumination devices behind plastic a "thing?" (I don't know.) 2) Why are they not placed...

teslamotorsclub.com

What we do know is that these LEDs (if they exist) appear to be completely invisible to the naked eye, at least in normal daylight conditions.

If I had to bet, I would bet there is no IR illumination in that location, based on available evidence so far. [EDIT: Glad I didn't bet. LEDs are confirmed to be hidden behind the plastic cover.]

 

[gearchruncher]

My theory is that is lens flare, or similar

Flip through his video. They're visibile every time the camera is in view:

I think your image is from a pre-IR led prototype. They're not invisible in a real car delivered to a customer. Where did your image come from?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Flip through his video. They're visibile every time the camera is in view:

I think your image is from a pre-IR led prototype. They're not invisible in a real car. Where did your image come from?

I agree that is convincing evidence. I think the apparent non symmetric location of the LEDs in the picture was likely due to the screen capture smearing the image a bit, or it may be something to do with the camera angle. I couldn't see any evidence of exposed LEDs in the video (I didn't bother to go frame by frame through the whole thing), so they do seem to be behind smoked plastic or something (it looks like this is a completely standard technology, which answers my questions).

That image is from here; it is a production vehicle.

2021 Tesla Model S Plaid - osultan

This gallery hosted by SmugMug; your photos look better here.

osultan.smugmug.com

I guess the LEDs are just hidden behind the plastic. And you can see them aliasing with the video camera frame rate.

 

[gearchruncher]

I guess the LEDs are just hidden behind the plastic. And you can see them aliasing with the video camera frame rate.

One possibility is that they do shine thought the plastic- video cameras often have some sensitivity to IR, so maybe that's why we could see them on a video image (with aliasing) but not a static image. They're also possibly not on when the vehicle is not on/moving.

If they are there in the customer image you shared, I admit that is a very impressive / invisible implementation.

 

[greenmore]

My theory is that is lens flare, or similar - I don't know all the technical terminology of lens artifacts (but I could definitely be wrong...I'm just asking because I actually want to know how they covered these LEDs and made them invisible, if that is what they did - I haven't seen it before, but not saying it is not possible):

OFFICIAL BUTTON WATCH

So it turns out the S refresh (likely not just plaid) has IR leds along with the camera DMS. I have a few questions about this: 1) Why don't these IR LEDs show up in the prior picture? Is hiding IR illumination devices behind plastic a "thing?" (I don't know.) 2) Why are they not placed...

teslamotorsclub.com

What we do know is that these LEDs (if they exist) appear to be completely invisible to the naked eye, at least in normal daylight conditions.

If I had to bet, I would bet there is no IR illumination in that location, based on available evidence so far.

There are certain plastics that are transparent to IR light but are opaque to visible light.
For example the Apple TV 4K, which looks completely black from outside is actually transparent to IR light and that's how it is able to sense IR signals from any direction.
So the IR LED can be sitting behind the IR transparent plastic and you wouldn't be able to tell it's there.
Also mode CMOS camera sensors are somewhat sensitive in IR, although most have an IR filter mounted on them to prevent IR light leaking in to RGB images. But still, most sensors will pick up strong IR lights.
You can check it by looking at the IR LED on an IR remote with your phone's camera. You have to be pressing buttons on the remote while checking.

Edit: Actually, I just checked, my iPhone didn't pick it up but my webcam did. So iPhone CMOS sensors apparently have good IR filters.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There are certain plastics that are transparent to IR light but are opaque to visible light.
For example the Apple TV 4K, which looks completely black from outside is actually transparent to IR light and that's how it is able to sense IR signals from any direction.

Yep, just poked around to look at what was available. Such plastics are readily available. Everything makes sense.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

f they are there in the customer image you shared, I admit that is a very impressive / invisible implementation.

Yeah, I think all the evidence says that they are there, at this point. They've just picked a plastic opaque to visible and transparent to IR. All completely normal, but good to know! All observations are consistent, which is why I asked my questions originally.

This should make it pretty easy to operate at night without having to deal with latency. Helps with EU compliance as well of course; I assume they require that the mandated monitoring systems operate in the dark.

I predict that Tesla will rely on the IR sensors at night in future, and the Model 3/Y will lose any functionality that may be enabled by the IR sensors, even though imaging at night is probably possible with long exposure (I don't know whether the image sensor has to have any particular capability to allow neural net processing for Night Mode). Might be too much work for Tesla.

It would be interesting to see whether new Model 3/Y are shipped with these LEDs...or whether they are already there on all Model 3/Y (I doubt it, but it is possible, and nobody noticed).

 

[rxlawdude]

Yeah, I think all the evidence says that they are there, at this point. They've just picked a plastic opaque to visible and transparent to IR. All completely normal, but good to know! All observations are consistent, which is why I asked my questions originally.

This should make it pretty easy to operate at night without having to deal with latency. Helps with EU compliance as well of course; I assume they require that the mandated monitoring systems operate in the dark.

I predict that Tesla will rely on the IR sensors at night in future, and the Model 3/Y will lose any functionality that may be enabled by the IR sensors, even though imaging at night is probably possible with long exposure (I don't know whether the image sensor has to have any particular capability to allow neural net processing for Night Mode). Might be too much work for Tesla.

It would be interesting to see whether new Model 3/Y are shipped with these LEDs...or whether they are already there on all Model 3/Y (I doubt it, but it is possible, and nobody noticed).

If they are on extant 3s and Ys, not being activated would imply the IR emitters are also inactive.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

not being activated

I’m not quite following I guess. The camera is active on Model 3/Y. So probably the (likely non-existent) emitters would be active too.

IR sensors

I don't know why I called them sensors in this paragraph, haha. They're LEDs. Obviously they are emitters...resulting in IR sensing by the camera.

 

[rxlawdude]

I’m not quite following I guess. The camera is active on Model 3/Y. So probably the (likely non-existent) emitters would be active too.


I don't know why I called them sensors in this paragraph, haha. They're LEDs. Obviously they are emitters...resulting in IR sensing by the camera.

It is? On radar equipped 3s and Ys?

I've not seen the cabin camera notice, on 18.3 in our 2020 Y. So, it's inactive.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It is? On radar equipped 3s and Ys?

I've not seen the cabin camera notice, on 18.3 in our 2020 Y. So, it's inactive.

Admittedly I haven't followed all the details, but this is from April, before Radargate. Relying on a cabin camera notice to show up after a software update to tell you whether the cabin camera is active seems...unreliable.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1380001059884707844

On my radar-equipped Model 3, running 2021.4.18.3, under Data Sharing, I am sharing cabin camera analytics (and have been for a while, since 2021.4.15.x). I don't recall ever getting a cabin camera update notice (though I don't remember for sure, this is low confidence, since I don't care that much), but I DO remember poking through the data sharing menu when on version 15.x and seeing the cabin camera sharing option. All "cold weather improvements," is what I recall, from the update notices.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I doubt it, but it is possible, and nobody noticed

I think it's basically impossible that no one noticed. Assuming a GoPro picks up IR, it would have shown up in the oodles of footage available from FSD Beta runs, etc. Took a few days for the Plaid, so would have taken the same for the 3/Y. So I assume they don't exist. In newer 3/Y...maybe.

Not sure how we got here from the Button. The Button also does not exist.

 

[GeoffEV]

Admittedly I haven't followed all the details, but this is from April, before Radargate. Relying on a cabin camera notice to show up after a software update to tell you whether the cabin camera is active seems...unreliable.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1380001059884707844

On my radar-equipped Model 3, running 2021.4.18.3, under Data Sharing, I am sharing cabin camera analytics (and have been for a while, since 2021.4.15.x). I don't recall ever getting a cabin camera update notice (though I don't remember for sure, this is low confidence, since I don't care that much), but I DO remember poking through the data sharing menu when on version 15.x and seeing the cabin camera sharing option. All "cold weather improvements," is what I recall, from the update notices.

I guess this set-up would trigger a "FSD Unavailable" warning - or worse?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I guess this set-up would trigger a "FSD Unavailable" warning - or worse?

Who knows in the future. For now, it would just detect "Camera Dark" and revert to normal "disabled" operation, I assume. In future, I imagine many fallback options.

I don't know what the regulations are in the EU for owners who decide to block their DMS cameras. What happens if the camera fails?

If Tesla is not constrained by regulation, I could imagine them allowing users to disable this and change (reduce?) functionality. It's a good question, not sure how it will go. We don't even know yet exactly what they're doing with it.