Official: Model S Extended Service & Warranty Options

[brianman]

I don't agree with everything he has to say here, but IMO this is a good way of capturing some of the angst on this topic:

For a car with a lot of new tech and an entirely new factory, $4400 actually seems reasonable to me for an extended warranty.
The pricing *scheme* leaves a bad taste in my mouth

In fewer words, the specific dollar amounts aren't the issue (for me at least).

 

[neroden]

You don't recommend it ... but you are doing everything you can to make it happen. You've posted about this numerous times. You've asked people to get in contact with you privately who have taken delivery.

No, that was about the violation of *copyright* law, which I *am*, personally, going to get Tesla to fix.

You don't KNOW there is a violation,

Yes, actually, I do know. You would know too if you'd done your research. The warranty law is quite clear, and George B's public statements are quite clear.

you've built a case in your mind that there is.

Or, you know, in actual fact.

What's going on? Why the constant posting about it, but at the same time advising against it?

It happens to be a fact: Tesla has stated their intent to violate federal warranty law. Perhaps they'll go ahead and obey the law anyway, but it's shoddy corporate behavior, and it's something they should fix. If Tesla would fix the problem, Tesla would stop exposing itself to a legal risk which it is bound to hit sooner or later. Before I even noticed the Warranty Act problem, there was at least one reservation holder at the Tesla official forums who said, roughly, "nobody touches my car but me, I'm not buying maintenance from Tesla, and I expect Tesla to honor my warranty." So someone's going to do it.

I don't advise doing it because it's a big hassle and I think Tesla's pricing would be reasonable apart from the half-assed, poorly-thought-out scheme used for the warranty.

My posting isn't "constant", it's only WHEN THE TOPIC COMES UP.

What's going on? Why are certain people really hostile to facts? There's lots of positive facts to publish about Tesla. And there are some negative ones.

Edit 2: perhaps the phrase "as an investor" should give you a clue as to why I care at all whether Tesla ignores federal law.

Edit: by the way, negative reptuation points on this forum are bullshit and should probably be abolished; they seem to be used primarily when people don't like to hear facts.

 

[bonnie]

I see it differently. And I'm not going to engage.

I'll just let the wheels of time resolve this one.

 

[qwk]

What's going on? Why are certain people really hostile to facts? There's lots of positive facts to publish about Tesla. And there are some negative ones.

Edit 2: perhaps the phrase "as an investor" should give you a clue as to why I care at all whether Tesla ignores federal law.

Edit: by the way, negative reptuation points on this forum are bullshit and should probably be abolished; they seem to be used primarily when people don't like to hear facts.

The funny thing is, the people who are adamant about not having any negative things posted about Tesla are the first to give negative reputation points. AND they do it behind your back. Lol
Let's face it, we are all adults here, this isn't 6th grade. I may not agree with nerodens or some others posts here, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. If one doesn't agree, they can debate, but the backstabbing reputation points shows just what kind of person you are.

I have been here since the beginning. This used to be the best forum out of any I have visited(dozens), but now has become just like any other. The technical and usefull info here is sparse nowadays. Pretty sad.

 

[rcc]

No, that was about the violation of *copyright* law, which I *am*, personally, going to get Tesla to fix.


Yes, actually, I do know. You would know too if you'd done your research. The warranty law is quite clear, and George B's public statements are quite clear.


Or, you know, in actual fact.


It happens to be a fact: Tesla has stated their intent to violate federal warranty law. Perhaps they'll go ahead and obey the law anyway, but it's shoddy corporate behavior, and it's something they should fix. If Tesla would fix the problem, Tesla would stop exposing itself to a legal risk which it is bound to hit sooner or later. Before I even noticed the Warranty Act problem, there was at least one reservation holder at the Tesla official forums who said, roughly, "nobody touches my car but me, I'm not buying maintenance from Tesla, and I expect Tesla to honor my warranty." So someone's going to do it.

I don't advise doing it because it's a big hassle and I think Tesla's pricing would be reasonable apart from the half-assed, poorly-thought-out scheme used for the warranty.

My posting isn't "constant", it's only WHEN THE TOPIC COMES UP.

What's going on? Why are certain people really hostile to facts? There's lots of positive facts to publish about Tesla. And there are some negative ones.

Edit 2: perhaps the phrase "as an investor" should give you a clue as to why I care at all whether Tesla ignores federal law.

Edit: by the way, negative reptuation points on this forum are bullshit and should probably be abolished; they seem to be used primarily when people don't like to hear facts.

I've seen your posts on this topic a number of times. So I have to ask:

1) are you a lawyer?
2) if so, is your area of specialty federal warranty law or any kind of warranty law and/or automobile servicing?
3) and if so, are you up to date with current case law in these areas?

Reason I'm asking is that I have to believe that Tesla has run its warranty and servicing strategy by lawyers who are trained legal specialists and are up to date with current case law in the area of federal and state warranty laws and automobile servicing laws and regulations. Elon is many things but stupid about the law and the risks of running afoul of laws and regulations isn't one of them. Not after Paypal and SpaceX. You think Elon is going to risk Telsa's future on an obvious legal issue? Or any legal issue?

So my bet is that if you don't have deep subject matter expertise in this area, the odds are high that what seems to you to be a clear legal violation isn't.

 

[kendallpb]

There is one other option. As has been noted before, Tesla's official statement that you are required to get the maintenance in order to use the warranty... is a statement that Tesla intends to violate the federal Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act.

Nah. I read the threads about this, some time ago (so I may be very out of date on current thinking), and it didn't sound like they're violating it, nor intend to . . . reading things closely and taking all factors into account.

(2) The warranty for years 2-4 costs $1900, because of the mandatory "maintenance contract".
(2) The extended warranty is $4400 for years 5-8.

Yup, this is what I'm looking at, methinks.

Basically, it's deceptive pricing.

I disagree. They don't count optional stuff and do count a rebate currently in effect. We may feel the optional stuff's a no-brainer and we may worry about when the rebate goes away (or whether we'll qualify for the full rebate) . . . but they do exist, and I feel like I've seen enough footnotes on Tesla's site re. the latter that it's not deceptive.

My post-finalize design PDF shows the full base price ("excluding $7500 federal tax credit"). I do feel they should list the credit on a separate line item, just before the total, where it is taken out. I don't believe it's deceptive, though (which requires intent); I believe it's just a poorly designed break-down.

So if your interest rate is 10% or less, the prepaid plan is unequivocally better. And it almost certainly is.

If you would have to borrow the money for the prepaid plan at rates upwards of 10%, then go with the pay-as-you-go scheme. Otherwise, get the prepaid scheme.

Thanks for summarizing. I figured it would be better, but hadn't considered interest. I will hold money back from the downpayment and finance more, but none of the interest rates (savings or loan) will be anywhere near 10%.

Edit: Or, I suppose, if you plan to invest the money in Tesla stock and expect to double it in a year, you might want to go with the pay-as-you-go scheme. :tongue:

LOL! Good to to consider all options.

- - - Updated - - -

When calculating the value of the initial or extended service, don't forget the value of software updates. Software development is expensive. Secure software development for systems that impact life-safety and yet are internet connected is far more expensive. While the servicing pricing initially seemed steep to me, the more I thought about it, it's what I would spend on maintenance on my current car anyway, plus the benefit I don't get on my current car of constant feature improvements. From a value perspective I'm pretty comfortable with that.

Good point, and it's a frequently undervalued part of the whole thing. Though it's impossible to quantify, IMHO.

- - - Updated - - -

It happens to be a fact: Tesla has stated their intent to violate federal warranty law.

I shouldn't nit pick, but no, they have stated certain intentions and you/whoever interpret it like that . . . but nothing's been proven and they certainly never said "we intend to violate federal warranty law."

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes, actually, I do know. You would know too if you'd done your research. The warranty law is quite clear, and George B's public statements are quite clear.

I'm pretty sure we had this discussion already. What George B said is likely illegal in regards to implying the service plan is "mandatory" for the warranty to be valid (unless they get an exemption from the FTC for tie-in sales, see my post in the other thread).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...s-Warranty-Act?p=185107&viewfull=1#post185107

What the written warranty says is not illegal because it matches what the FTC says is allowed in written warranties (bold parts my emphasis):

Although Tesla does not require you to perform all maintenance, service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to lack of or improper maintenance, service or repairs. Tesla Service Centers and Tesla authorized repair facilities have special training, expertise, tools and supplies with respect to your vehicle and, in certain cases, may employ the only persons or be the only facilities authorized or certified to work on certain parts of your vehicle. Tesla strongly recommends that you have all maintenance, service and repairs done at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility in order to avoid voiding, or having coverage excluded under, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

PDF written warranty link here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9578-Warranty-(esp-driving-through-floods!)

The main thing is Tesla can't require a specific service plan or you to only get service from them for the warranty to be valid. But they CAN require maintenance/service/repairs in general (not necessarily done by Tesla) for the warranty to be valid. The special situation right now is a lot of the service (mainly the checkup of the motor/batteries) can only be practically done by Tesla right now because there's really no third party EV servicing industry yet (the FTC exemption is designed for this situation). I think that's what George B's trying to say. It's a similar situation for the Leaf and Volt, but they just cost less for annual service.

 

[Schlermie]

I did some spreadsheet work to compare the total cost of each service plan option over 8 years, dependent on your average percentage return on investments, compounded annually during those 8 years. Here's the summary:

If your average return on investments is less than 4% annually, you should go with the 8-year prepaid ($3800) service plan.

If your average return on investments is between 4% and 10% annually, you should go with the 4-year prepaid ($1900) service plan and then pay-as-you-go $600 annually for the remaining 4 years.

If your average return on investments is greater than 10% annually, you should pay-as-you-go $600 annually for 8 years.

NOTE: None of this analysis includes any cost of Ranger service. It assumes all your service is done at a service center. It also assumes the pay-as-you-go service cost remains at $600 annually over the next 8 years. Of course, there are risks from locking yourself in with a prepayment as well.

 

[jerry33]

NOTE: None of this analysis includes any cost of Ranger service. It assumes all your service is done at a service center. It also assumes the pay-as-you-go service cost remains at $600 annually over the next 8 years. Of course, there are risks from locking yourself in with a prepayment as well.

It also doesn't include replaceable parts. The way I understand it is that if you purchase the prepaid plan all parts but tires are included. Pay as you go just covers the service aspect.

 

[ckessel]

It also doesn't include replaceable parts. The way I understand it is that if you purchase the prepaid plan all parts but tires are included. Pay as you go just covers the service aspect.

I don't see anything that indicates the service level changes depending on if you prepay or pay yearly.

 

[RDoc]

I'm still thinking that to get any parts beyond windshield wipers and brake pads etc. for years 5-8 you'll need both the extended warranty for $2500 and the service package for another $1900 or $2400. GeorgeB was very unclear in his post what you actually get with the service plan or how it relates to the extended warranty. For that matter, he didn't mention if there will be a $600/yr option.

 

[jerry33]

I'm still thinking that to get any parts beyond windshield wipers and brake pads etc. for years 5-8 you'll need both the extended warranty for $2500 and the service package for another $1900 or $2400.

Until a more explicit version comes along I'm using the following:

1. Any parts or supplies declared "consumables" (brakes, lights, fluids, etc.) are included in the the pre-paid maintenance, excluding tires.

2. Any parts that are not "consumables" are warranty items (battery, motor, inverter, etc.)

3. The $600 pay-as-you-go doesn't include any supplies or parts.

[ducks and covers head]

 

[Schlermie]

Transforming Automotive Service blog
"In North America, a one-year (or 12,500-mile) service plan costs $600. This price covers your annual inspection and all wear and tear parts, excluding tires. This plan is paid for at the time of your annual (or 12,500-mile) inspection."

 

[ckessel]

Until a more explicit version comes along I'm using the following:

1. Any parts or supplies declared "consumables" (brakes, lights, fluids, etc.) are included in the the pre-paid maintenance, excluding tires.

2. Any parts that are not "consumables" are warranty items (battery, motor, inverter, etc.)

3. The $600 pay-as-you-go doesn't include any supplies or parts.

[ducks and covers head]

No need to duck, I just have no idea why you're assuming that since Tesla's page on service doesn't say that. The verbiage is the same regardless of service plan.

 

[jerry33]

I just have no idea why you're assuming that since Tesla's page on service doesn't say that. The verbiage is the same regardless of service plan.

I was thinking of the Supercharger "TDB", then "Included", then "$2000" switcheroo for the 60 kWh car. If it doesn't happen that's great, but a precedent has been set.

 

[ckessel]

I was thinking of the Supercharger "TDB", then "Included", then "$2000" switcheroo for the 60 kWh car. If it doesn't happen that's great, but a precedent has been set.

I suppose things could potentially change, but how does that line of reasoning not apply to everything on Tesla's website?

 

[jerry33]

I suppose things could potentially change, but how does that line of reasoning not apply to everything on Tesla's website?

A lot of the items on the website have been fixed for a long time. The maintenance was one that wasn't, similar to the Supercharger on the 60 kWh. Setting the bar low makes for less disappointment.

 

[neroden]

The main thing is Tesla can't require a specific service plan or you to only get service from them for the warranty to be valid. But they CAN require maintenance/service/repairs in general (not necessarily done by Tesla) for the warranty to be valid. The special situation right now is a lot of the service (mainly the checkup of the motor/batteries) can only be practically done by Tesla right now because there's really no third party EV servicing industry yet (the FTC exemption is designed for this situation).

Yes. But there's another catch. The failure to tell Tesla purchasers what they are supposed to do in terms of maintenance amounts to a requirement to use Tesla maintenance, and an illegal one. You can't just say "Oh, do something (which we won't tell you what it is) or we'll void your warranty". That's not a warranty, that's a fraud. If Tesla specified some exotic sequence of tests which only Tesla could currently do, then the written warranty would be legal. Voiding your warranty for failure to do unknown and undocumented maintenance is not only in violation of the Warranty Act, it's so inherently unreasonable that it would get any jury angry.

In practice, given Tesla's failure to provide maintenance information, the only way for Tesla to stay legal is to honor the 4-year warranty, period, regardless of whether people pay for annual service. You can't void a warranty for "lack of maintenance" if you haven't described what maintenance is. (Unless it's something which is standard for all cars, perhaps, like balancing tires.)

 

[vfx]

Nissan raises the bar on battery warranties.

In addition to the 8-year/100,000-mile warranty on the lithium-ion battery, which covers defects in materials or workmanship, Nissan is now the only automobile manufacturer to provide a warranty against battery capacity loss. This new addition to the lithium-ion battery warranty for your LEAF® ensures protection against capacity loss below nine bars—as displayed on the battery capacity level gauge—for a period of five years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. Nissan will be providing additional information shortly with details on this significant addition to your vehicle’s battery warranty.

For more information about your LEAF’s battery warranty, please contact your dealership.

 

[brianman]

This new addition to the lithium-ion battery warranty for your LEAF® ensures protection against capacity loss below nine bars—as displayed on the battery capacity level gauge

Nissan unpublished firmware notes, dated 2013/06/30:

- double the number of bars in the display
- set minimum full bar count to 9

No, I don't trust any warranty on such a subjective and easily changeable metric.

I seem to recall Nissan doing exactly this kind of thing regarding the Arizona climate in a post on this forum a bit back.