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Official: Roadster Extended Service Announced

djp

Model 3 Performance
Aug 28, 2011
1,120
60
Toronto, Canada
Not sure of the logic of $40k for a battery. It would have to be appalling to have to replace the entire battery.

Agreed, you could plug in lower cost assumptions for the battery swaps, but that would also make Tesla's profit margin on the warranty higher.

Another way to look at the warranty cost - at $7,500 over three years, Tesla could have spent $48K on each one of the 17 battery swaps and still come out even. No question there's a healthy profit margin built in.
 

smorgasbord

Active Member
Jun 3, 2011
3,194
5,060
SF Bay Area
For the BMW M5, Edmunds found maintenance + repair to be $4,700 per year average over the first 5 years (total of $23,531)

Edmunds is wrong. I've owned 4 BMWs.

All new BMWs today have 4 years/50,000 miles of no-cost maintenance and full coverage warranty included. Yes, even wiper blade inserts are covered.
 

Norbert

TSLA will win
Oct 12, 2009
5,458
1,699
San Francisco, CA
Edmunds is wrong. I've owned 4 BMWs.

All new BMWs today have 4 years/50,000 miles of no-cost maintenance and full coverage warranty included. Yes, even wiper blade inserts are covered.

Were those M5s, or other models with <4 sec 0-60 ?

I'd guess that in 2010, those costs weren't included in the car price, since Edmunds often has $0 entries for the first few years, which surely reflects included service.

Of course, any price for service is high, if you compare it to "included". That obviously has nothing to do with ICE vs EV cost, or even profit margin, and is simply a question of marketing strategy.
 

speedy99

Model 3 (2018, LR)
Aug 15, 2011
57
5
Santa Cruz, California
Were those M5s, or other models with <4 sec 0-60 ?

I'd guess that in 2010, those costs weren't included in the car price, since Edmunds often has $0 entries for the first few years, which surely reflects included service.

Of course, any price for service is high, if you compare it to "included". That obviously has nothing to do with ICE vs EV cost, or even profit margin, and is simply a question of marketing strategy.

BMW has done the all service included thing since the late 90s, for all their cars. It has been at least 40K or 3 years for a long while.

The extended service seems like a good deal to me. You have to remember the electronics are subjected to lots of heat stresses, so unlike other electronics that fail fast or last for a while, I would expect to see higher failure rates as the electronics age, potentially in a linear failure rate (more time - more failures). I am actually a lot less worried about the battery than the PEM.
 

Norbert

TSLA will win
Oct 12, 2009
5,458
1,699
San Francisco, CA
BMW has done the all service included thing since the late 90s, for all their cars. It has been at least 40K or 3 years for a long while.

It seems that where and when service is non-zero (year 4 and 5), for cars with a 0-60 time < 4 sec, more than $4,000/year for maintenance + repair is common.

The Model S seems a good bit less expensive than the Roadster, which I think is mostly the technical progress during that time, the Roadster being the first such production electric sports car, and built in smaller volumes.
 

smorgasbord

Active Member
Jun 3, 2011
3,194
5,060
SF Bay Area
The extended service seems like a good deal to me. You have to remember the electronics are subjected to lots of heat stresses, so unlike other electronics that fail fast or last for a while, I would expect to see higher failure rates as the electronics age, potentially in a linear failure rate (more time - more failures).

Yup, nothing inexpensive about maintaining a Tesla EV.

Tesla says: "With just one moving piece in the motor, compared to hundreds in a gas engine, there are fewer things that can go wrong. That translates to less maintenance and service over time."

My experience is contrary to that statement, and the prices Tesla is charging for the extended warranty reinforce my experience.

Don't get me wrong folks. I love my Roadster, but that doesn't make me blind to the fact that "less maintenance and service" has yet to be achieved by Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems that where and when service is non-zero (year 4 and 5), for cars with a 0-60 time < 4 sec...

I'm sure if you keep twisting, you'll actually convince yourself. Since you're comparing specs, note that Tesla doesn't even claim MSP can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds. And Tesla charges the same amount for 40kWh, textile interior, no tech package service/warranty as they do for fully loaded MSPs.
 

hcsharp

Active Member
Jun 7, 2011
3,383
1,343
Vermont
...
The extended service seems like a good deal to me. You have to remember the electronics are subjected to lots of heat stresses, so unlike other electronics that fail fast or last for a while, I would expect to see higher failure rates as the electronics age, potentially in a linear failure rate (more time - more failures). I am actually a lot less worried about the battery than the PEM.

This ^^^. The PEM has some large capacitors and SSRs in it. They can wear out over time. That said, it doesn't appear from Tom's PIA study that the high mileage PEMs are failing at a higher rate than the low mileage PEMs. Keep in mind we really don't have enough data samples draw many conclusions.
 

Norbert

TSLA will win
Oct 12, 2009
5,458
1,699
San Francisco, CA
I'm sure if you keep twisting, you'll actually convince yourself. Since you're comparing specs, note that Tesla doesn't even claim MSP can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds. And Tesla charges the same amount for 40kWh, textile interior, no tech package service/warranty as they do for fully loaded MSPs.

We were mainly talking about the Roadster, which officially has 3.7 and 3.9 sec for 0-60. That's a plain fact.

When I take the year4 and year5 numbers for maintenance+repair for various Porsche 911s from Edmunds (year1 through year3 are zero), I get averages of above $4,000 per year. Including those which officially do about 4.5 sec. So those numbers are also comparable to the Model S performance.

(Whereas for example the Turbo Convertible (I think 3.2 sec) has an average of above $4,800 per year.)

So it seems a word like "twisting" was at least premature for the discussion. You haven't even come close to showing anything remotely justifying that.
 
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bart513

Active Member
Feb 27, 2013
1,341
92
East Hampton
I am about to purchase a 2008 Roadster with about 15,000 miles and the warranty running out in April. Any suggestions here? Is it really that expensive to maintain the car and what do I need to look out for? I know that the car had only 1 owner and was garage kept and well maintained. I will be putting a lot of miles on the car. Probably between 20 and 25,000 miles a year.
 

djp

Model 3 Performance
Aug 28, 2011
1,120
60
Toronto, Canada
I am about to purchase a 2008 Roadster with about 15,000 miles and the warranty running out in April. Any suggestions here? Is it really that expensive to maintain the car and what do I need to look out for? I know that the car had only 1 owner and was garage kept and well maintained. I will be putting a lot of miles on the car. Probably between 20 and 25,000 miles a year.

The ongoing cost of maintenance is fairly low, you can expect to pay $600 per year for the annual service visit, plus the usual costs for new tires, brake pads, fluids, etc. Brakes should last longer thanks to regenerative braking, there are no oil changes to worry about and the simple drive train will need less ongoing maintenance than an ICE car.

The potential expense is mostly driven by two big ticket items whose failure rate over time is still unknown: the battery and the PEM. The most recent quote from Tesla to replace a dead battery (including labour) is $40K, although this is expected to come down over time and some owners have pre-paid for a battery replacement at $14K. Check if the car you're buying includes the battery replacement agreement.

A refurb PEM is estimated at $7,500 plus installation, so let's say $10K as a round number. The oldest Roadsters are 4-5 years old and we have little data on them, so we don't know how the batteries and PEMs will hold up over time. If neither fail then the maintenance cost of the car is very low. If they both fail then you're looking at $50K to replace them. The warranties are attractive if you don't want to self-insure the risk of a random $50K expense.

The life of the battery is estimated to be 8-10 years and I'm guessing the PEM will have a similar lifespan. To be safe you should be putting away $5K per year to pay for their eventual replacement (with a big caveat that we don't know their actual life or actual cost yet).
 

bart513

Active Member
Feb 27, 2013
1,341
92
East Hampton
Thank you djp. I emailed the original owner to see if he purchased the battery replacement agreement. Do you know if the battery life is dependent on the miles driven or it is regardless of that and just based on time? It sounds as if you don't think that I should purchase any of the extended warranties as they expire after 36,000 miles which I put on in about 18 months. Whoever is tracking the Roadsters should contact me as there is no good long term data and will certainly be putting on the miles!
 

smorgasbord

Active Member
Jun 3, 2011
3,194
5,060
SF Bay Area
Whoever is tracking the Roadsters should contact me as there is no good long term data and will certainly be putting on the miles!

Read these threads:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/6491-Roadster-Owner-Based-Study-of-Battery-Pack-Capacity-Over-Time

and

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12756-Plug-In-America-Tesla-Roadster-Survey

Bottom line is that mileage is the biggest factor, but secondary factors (temperature, range charges, etc.) should not be ignored.

EDIT: If you're thinking of buying a used Roadster, you should find out its current CAC value. If you don't know how to do this, PM me.
 
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stevezzzz

R;SigS;P85D;SigX;S90D;XP100D;3LR;YLR
Nov 13, 2009
6,100
122
Colorado
Thank you djp. I emailed the original owner to see if he purchased the battery replacement agreement. Do you know if the battery life is dependent on the miles driven or it is regardless of that and just based on time? It sounds as if you don't think that I should purchase any of the extended warranties as they expire after 36,000 miles which I put on in about 18 months. Whoever is tracking the Roadsters should contact me as there is no good long term data and will certainly be putting on the miles!

You might ask the owner what a full Standard charge yields for a range number; that'll tell you something about the condition of the battery pack. You might also ask how many Range charges they've done, though any early degradation from excessive Range charging would tend to show up in the full-Standard-charge range number.
 

smorgasbord

Active Member
Jun 3, 2011
3,194
5,060
SF Bay Area
We were mainly talking about the Roadster...

We are both talking about all Tesla EVs. My cost comment was about "Tesla EVs" and your comparison was to an M5.

What's telling is that I bet Roadster costs a lot more to maintain than the Lotus Elise upon which it's based. That's direct proof against Tesla's claim about fewer moving parts due to lack of an ICE equating to less maintenance. And while you can argue that the Roadster costs far more than the Elise, that's just contributing to the higher expenses of an EV. Yes, you get better performance, but you don't get less or cheaper maintenance.

As for Model S, it's early yet to know about how much maintenance will be required. At least Model S owners will know the costs involved for 8 years of ownership. And, it's fairly easy to compare that against similar warranty/maintenance plans from companies like BMW.
 
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bonnie

I play a nice person on twitter.
Feb 6, 2011
16,427
9,741
Columbia River Gorge
I heard the following info will be updated shortly on the Tesla Motors website, to add further clarification regarding tires/wheels:

The tire and wheel road hazard is for 4 years, 50,000 miles (same as the regular warranty on Model S). Will change the website
It is only available for US customers for now.
 

dhrivnak

Active Member
Jan 8, 2011
4,436
3,651
NE Tennessee
My understanding is the battery "warranty" covers a battery failure but NOT loss in capacity. For example if one were to plunk down the $7.5K for the 3 year extension if your battery dies in 2 1/2 years then they will fix or replace it. But if your range is say 100 miles, less than 50%, that is not covered. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 

Norbert

TSLA will win
Oct 12, 2009
5,458
1,699
San Francisco, CA
We are both talking about all Tesla EVs. My cost comment was about "Tesla EVs" and your comparison was to an M5.

Prior to my post, the only prices discussed in this thread were the Roadster prices. I was the first to mention the Model S specifically, and originally did so *not* because you used the term "Tesla EVs", but to point out that the current technology from Tesla comes with lower service plan costs, compared to the Roadster (which isn't being built anymore). (And mentioning the Model S wasn't the main part of my post in any case).

While the Model S Performance acceleration is above 4 sec, I think that doesn't even matter here. The only reason it is slower than the Roadster, by officially 0.5 sec, is its larger size and therefore weight. Which doesn't seem to be something that would lower the service costs. Another reason might be that for the Roadster, they also need to use replacement parts which were built by Lotus, although I'd think that would be a smaller part of it. It appears to be more a matter of Tesla (already) improving their technology, over time. So, based on the Model S Performance, I think one can say that if Tesla built a Roadster-like car today, then the service plan costs would be similar to those of the Model S Performance.

Looking at the information on Edmunds.com, it does appear (to me, so far) that either the price or the performance of an ICE, or both, significantly affect the maintenance+repair costs. So that needs to be considered when comparing.
 

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