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Oh dear... someone concocted a hybrid Model 3

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by voyager, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. voyager

    voyager Member

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    #1 voyager, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    How's your German?
    Tesla Model 3 besser mit Hybridantrieb Tesla Model 3 mit Hybridantrieb

    Translated some:

    In Obrist Mark II, the combustion engine is not an auxiliary engine that kicks in when the battery is at the end of its strength, but when the car is driving at speeds of over 65 km / h - not to direct additional forces onto the drive axle, but to gently recharge the battery. “What all today's batteries are least capable of is to get fully charged then completely discharged. After maybe 500 charging cycles, the battery therefore only has a capacity of 80 percent, ”criticizes Obrist. With his system, the battery is always recharged a little in between - "chemistry can convert ten times more energy."

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. holmgang

    holmgang Active Member

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    Alle sind besser mit kraftstoff
     
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  3. TEG

    TEG Teslafanatic

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    An engineer from Austria wants to take a new direction with a new drive concept for electric mobility.

    Electric carJan 3, 2020
    Franz W. Rother
    Photo: Photo: Thorsten Rixmann

    What are the biggest brakes currently for the widespread spread of electric cars? A manageable range of models, an incomplete infrastructure, but above all the high price of the vehicles: A Tesla Model 3 in the cheapest version Standard Range Plus (44,390 euros) is around 10,000 euros more expensive than a comparable spacious sedan of the type Ford Mondeo with hybrid drive. Even the new government subsidies cannot completely bridge this huge price gap.

    Small engine in the Tesla "Frunk"
    So what do you do if you want to do something good for the environment despite a modest budget, travel comfortably and without fear of range? You get a Tesla Model 3 - and convert it into a plug-in hybrid. With a small, highly efficient petrol engine in the front "frunk" and a significantly smaller and cheaper lithium-ion battery in the vehicle floor. Instead of around 400 kilometers, the Tesla then only drives almost 100 kilometers purely electrically through the landscape. But the vehicle would be significantly lighter and only half as expensive as the original from California. And with a range of over 1000 kilometers, it would beat even the most expensive Tesla by a long way.

    Frank Obrist from Lustenau in Vorarlberg, founder and main shareholder of the engineering company Obrist Powertrain on Lake Constance, will surely incur the anger of the "Teslaratis" and the disciples of Elon Musk with his conversion of the fully electric Model 3. However, the Austrian entrepreneur and father of seven children is absolutely convinced that his “hyper hybrid” performs significantly better than a pure battery car in terms of cost and environmental aspects. In addition, vehicles with drive technology can already be used in countries and regions without a dense network of charging stations, such as in Asia, Africa and Latin America.

    Silent and low vibration
    Certainly, unlike the Tesla, the "Obrist Mark II" (the first prototype called the Mark I was based on a Chinese Geely EC7) is not yet completely emission-free. But the small two-cylinder petrol engine, which works as a generator under the bonnet, always runs (if it runs) in the optimal speed range and always with a perfect air-fuel ratio. The engine with an efficiency of 40 percent therefore does not require exhaust gas aftertreatment and is content with an average of only about two liters of petrol per 100 kilometers. If it were operated with synthetic fuel generated with the help of wind or water power, for example based on biomass, it would even be completely environmentally neutral. It would already be tax-free today because, due to the electrical range of 96 kilometers and the rules of the European Union, it only calculates CO2 emissions of 23 grams per kilometer. This means that the current limit values are undercut as much as the stricter limits for 2030.

    Obrist has been working on his hyper-hybrid concept for over seven years. The engineer and former employee of the inventor Felix Wankel developed the extremely economical and quiet "Zero Vibration Generator", on which the coins remain as if on a twelve-cylinder, as well as the vacuumed battery. Although this stores only 17.3 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity in the Mark II, it weighs only 98 kilos instead of 478 like the 50 kWh block in the Tesla Model 3. Both units are also inexpensive to manufacture: Obrist has the generator at around 1200 euros calculated per unit, the battery with 2000 euros.

    Range extender "fundamentally wrong"
    The energy management system, which works much more efficiently than in other vehicles with a serial hybrid drive, is also patented. This also applies, and in particular, to the version of the BMW i3 with range extender that Bavaria has been offering until recently. Comparisons with the car quickly upset Obrist: “The name Range Extender already contains everything that is fundamentally wrong for engineers. Why should I buy an electric car that makes a conventional combustion engine do all the work when the battery is empty? ”With all the noise, vibrations and emissions that go with it.

    Constant recharging protects the battery
    In Obrist Mark II, the combustion engine is not an auxiliary engine that jumps in when the battery is at the end of its strength. With the concept of the Austrians, the generator jumps in when the car is driving at speeds of over 65 km / h - not to direct additional forces onto the drive axle, but to gently recharge the battery. “What all today's batteries are least capable of is fully charged and completely discharged. After maybe 500 charging cycles, the battery only has a capacity of 80 percent, ”criticizes Obrist. With his system, the battery is always recharged a little in between - "chemistry can convert ten times more energy."

    Everything sounds good, but when will we see the first production vehicle with the drive on the road? Obrist smiles - and remains silent. Shortly before the end of the year, he was on the other side of Lake Constance with the prototype (and a BMW i3 with a range extender as a comparison vehicle) at a large car supplier in Friedrichshafen. A name is not mentioned, but when the name ZF comes up there is no denial. There, according to an insider, they were very impressed by the technology and the test drives.

    First production cars by 2023 at the latest
    In October, a first license agreement was signed with a "prominent international market player", and a second license agreement will be concluded shortly. And then it could be very quick: in Lustenau, it is expected that the first car with the hyper-hybrid drive will be available as early as 2023. It will certainly not remain an exotic one: Mazda is working on a variant of its MX30 electric car with a Wankel engine as a power generator. The Japanese also consider the development of heavy electric cars with large batteries to be a mistake.

    We will see which concept prevails.
     
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  4. TEG

    TEG Teslafanatic

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    The two-cylinder “Zero Vibration Generator” from Obrist has an output of 40 KW / 54 HP, which works particularly smoothly thanks to counter-rotating and interlocking crankshafts.
    The machine has an efficiency of 40 percent and does not require exhaust gas aftertreatment and consumes on average no more than 2 liters of petrol per 100 kilometers.
    The weight of the small technical marvel: 95 kilograms
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    Serial hybrid designs never turn out to be as efficient as planetary gearbox parallel systems. The Toyota Prius engine is already 40% efficient so the overall efficiency of this is going to be lower due to generator, battery and motor losses. Also, 95 kg is not all that light, looks like a Prius engine weighs about 100kg.

    I do appreciate how efficiently this will troll Tesla fanboys :p
     
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  6. derekmw

    derekmw Member

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    On a side note...I like that front bumper
     
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  7. Lanzer

    Lanzer Member

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    Even though I never once thought that I need extended range on my LR Model 3, I appreciate the engineering and having the option to ease the worry of non-EV drivers about the whole range anxiety issue.

    I can imagine some scenarios where certain job requirements might demand this type of setup.

    On the other hand, the whole battery life extending aspect might be gone once the new battery chemistry is released. I don't need more range, but the thought of being able to charge to 100% all the time makes my nerd brain happy.
     
  8. CAAD

    CAAD Member

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    Unbeknownst to the creator, he sells a bunch of the front bumper instead. I like it too.

    Hey Chevy are you there? You haven't forgotten the Volt yet right?
     
  9. lotusland

    lotusland Member

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    Imagine a model 3 with one of these in the frunk, but instead of plumbing into the car's battery it has a charging cable attached. Now you have a mobile semi-supercharger for EVs that have run out of range. Put ten of them in a Cybertruck and you have a track day topper. For emergency and occasional use they could be very helpful. I suppose any generator could do the same but this one is designed for mobile installation.
     
  10. KenC

    KenC Active Member

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    Sounds exactly like the first-gen Chevy Volt.
     
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  11. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    It's sounds like the first gen Volt before they realized they had screwed up and changed the design to be a parallel hybrid instead (with planetary gearbox like the Prius). The first gen Volt was not really a series hybrid, this is like a Fisker Karma or a BMW i3.
     
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  12. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    The principle flaw in that argument is thinking that the current Tesla charging infrastructure in Europe is insufficient.

    But the idea of combining a small gas engine with a small battery is hardly new, even though this particular concept does differ in some ways from similar hybrids.

    However, the goal is to burn zero fossil fuels. Anything less is simply adding to the pollution problem, and poisoning the atmosphere and climate system that we all rely on.
     
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  13. acarney

    acarney Active Member

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    I can't imagine this being drastically cheaper than a larger battery... but could you imagine if you could buy a SR+ and run it like a full EV 90% of the time, but have a 350+ mile range for road trips three or four times a year? If the cost was like $2,000 to $2,500 to install that would be a big improvement over Tesla's $9,000 difference...

    I 100% agree that this isn't a step in the right direction for EV's, BUT, I would rather 20% of the driving population switch to this and burn 20 or 30 gallons a year total instead of hundreds of gallons.

    I think ~200 miles of highway range is great, and it fits into my life well (at least so far, we'll see if I suddenly start visiting national parks or something) but when I tell people that don't know about Tesla they all look like "wow that's pretty good.... i guess... sort of." There's always this underlying "that's all?" kind of tone. It's getting better, a lot better, and with a little work it should be enough for just about everyone, but people are damn lazy and they don't want to make two supercharger stops if before they could do one quick 5 minute gas up. This could be the answer for that.

    I always thought the Volt was absolutely fantastic and would kill if they could bring a 3rd gen with like 100 miles battery range (so maybe 65 miles realistically in the winter) and keep at least 250 miles with the gas range extender. It killed me every single time that gas engine kicked on and so often I was like "man, 30 or 40 more miles and I would NEVER use the gas engine unless it was a road trip."
     
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  14. hydro 481

    hydro 481 Active Member

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    Where can I get me one of those?
     
  15. ICUDoc

    ICUDoc Active Member

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    I appreciate the engineering and dedication this man shows in designing and building this hybrid.
    I've always thought that roadside assistance should carry a maximally-energy-dense battery shaped exactly like the frunk: drop it in as assistance to anyone who ever runs out of range, just to get them out of trouble.
    But, back to the topic at hand: I expect Obrist will sell enough of those sporty, cool-looking bumpers to fund further research and development!!
     
  16. gowthamn

    gowthamn Science

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    Hybrid still offers the best if both worlds. Batteries are still too heavy and does not have enough range and takes too long to charge

    I like the instant torque if EVs and the range and sound of ICEs.
     
  17. derekmw

    derekmw Member

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    I was curious about how that engine was in the frunk with all the plastic bucket/moldings still in place. I just realized now that the hood has vents added...but I don't get how that would work when they have the molding still around the frunk bucket where the engine is sitting.
     
  18. EVDRVN

    EVDRVN Active Member

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    How many miles do you drive a day and how often to make that statement valid?
     
  19. gowthamn

    gowthamn Science

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    For everyday use EV is fine if one has a home charger.
    It's interstate travel where range, speed of charging and number of charging station matters.

    And engine sound requirements is a matter of opinion
     
  20. EVDRVN

    EVDRVN Active Member

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    I can drive just about anywhere in the US with my 3 with no range issue and no inconvenience. I simply don't see any issue. I know many people that do not own a home EVSE and they have no issues. I drive in all conditions, over mountains, state parks and in winter, no concerns. For a person with an S there is a bonus 70 miles. I think the range issue is nonsense now.
     

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