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Ok, who will be the first Model S to beat this record?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Fredrik S, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Fredrik S

    Fredrik S Member

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    1,618 KM in 24 hours: a new world record for ZOE - media.renault.com

    "ZOE has set a new world record for the longest distance travelled in 24 hours by a production electric car.
    ZOE completed 363 laps of the Aubevoye speed ring in Normandy, a distance of 1,618 km (1005 miles). It thereby betters the former record of 1,280 km by 25%."
     
  2. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    That is still a pretty tough number for the 85kWh Model S. You would certainly need a supercharger, and a small circuit that should be flat, and free of stops (basically a closed course, like the Zoe).

    At first guess I would probably try to follow this schedule. Finding the optimum speed/recharge rates would be best. You would want to keep your recharges shorter and towards the bottom of the battery pack so you can maintain maximum charging rates (90kW). I figure you can get about 160 miles out of a 30 minute 90kW charge.


    Hours Action Total distance at end of time
    0 to 7, 50mph, 350 miles (560km)
    7 to 7.5, super charge, 350 miles
    7.5 to 10.5, 50mph, 500 miles (800km)
    10.5 to 11, supercharge 500 miles
    11 to 14, 50mph, 650 miles (1,040km)
    14 to 14.5, supercharge 650 miles
    14.5 to 17.5, 50mph, 800 miles (1,280)
    17.5 to 18, supercharge 800 miles
    18 to 21, 50mph, 950 miles (1,520km)
    21 to 21.5, supercharge 950 miles
    21.5 to 24 50mph, 1150 miles (1,840km)
     
  3. KBF

    KBF Model S 2017

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    Unless the quick battery swap happens. Then absolutely nothing else beats the model S. Top speed all the way, baby! ;)

    Seriously though, what would your distance be if there was a quick swap available? Any number crunchers out there to hazard a guess?
     
  4. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    #4 ElSupreme, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
    Doing a quick swag with these assumptions:

    you can drive for an hour at or above 110 miles an hour
    stop and swap packs, drivers every hour (5 minutes)
    you can probably put 100 miles of distance every hour

    This means that you could probably put down about 2400 miles (3,840km).
    Assuming you could stretch out the pack to 70 minutes (130 miles) you could probably cut 4 or 5 stops (don't need the last one) or about 25 minutes which would give you about another 50 miles.

    I would guess 2,450 miles (3,920km) would be a tough target. I would probably attempt to do 4,000km. That is assuming you can slowdown, stop, swap battery, and accelerate back to 110 in about 5-6 minutes. I think that is pretty tight. Not to mention that 19 stops of 5 minutes is only an hour and a half of total non-driving time.

    EDIT: The fastest Cannonball Run, 2,863 miles (4,608km) was a little under 33 hours, or about 87mph average. With proper pack swaps and strategic location a Model S might be able to come close to this time, if you consider pack swapping a legit maneuver. Cannonball Baker Sea-To-Shining-Sea Memorial Trophy Dash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  5. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    Using back of the napkin calculations (a full analysis is more complicated than I have time for right now), the ideal speed for this sort of thing is around 80 mph, which gives approx. the greatest mph average including charging (assuming 1 hour to charge to full).

    The Model S, using a supercharger and assuming 1 hr to charge to full, would get ~1400 miles in a 24 hour period.

    Only charging to about 80% (when the charger is putting out full charging current), which I think should take around 45 minutes, should do a little better.

    Edit:
    @90 mph, range is 150 miles. Assuming 1 hr of charging, that's 150 miles/90mph = 1.7 hrs + 1 hr for charging = ~55.55 mph average.
    @80 mph, range is 200 miles. Assuming 1 hr of charging, that's 200 miles/80mph = 2.5 hrs + 1 hr for charging = ~57 mph average. <---There's approximately the sweet spot.
    @70 mph, range is 240 miles. Assuming 1 hr of charging, that's 240 miles/70mph = 3.4 hrs + 1 hr for charging = ~54.5 mph average.
     
  6. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    Much better than my swag. I imagine that my routine is about what Renault did. 50mph and charging at zero until the rate starts to drop below max.
     
  7. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

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    That's pretty cool and they did it without battery swaps.

    I think Todd's calculations are good enough so just need a fast charger and a track. Using the aero wheels might help a bit (aren't the existing graphs using the 21" wheels?) so 1400-1500 miles should be possible.

    DOOOO EEEEETTTT!!
     
  8. BYT_P1837

    BYT_P1837 Member

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    For sure Tesla Motors could pull it off on their test track in Fremont with a quick battery swap option and can use that to advertise the car as well. Many wins and free publicity for TM!
     
  9. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    I don't think that their Freemont track is large enough to maintain 80mph and not lose a lot of power to turning. You need a speed oval (probably 3 miles or more) like Renault had.
     
  10. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    Yep...all that braking/accelerating on a smaller track would kill the approximate numbers I calculated. Maybe do it on a NASCAR track?!? hehe.
     
  11. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    #11 Norbert, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
    A few months ago, we calculated that the optimal speed with 90 kW supercharging available where needed, is 108 mph. (Using a range curve for the Roadster, adapted to the Model S. This could be improved by aligning with the actual graph that Tesla meanwhile posted for the Model S.)

    (The optimal speed is determined by the charging speed. If you go faster, you lose more time charging, than you gain by driving faster.)
     
  12. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Part of me doesn't care if your math was right or not, because your conclusion was > 100mph on a distance record challenge for a production vehicle. :)
     
  13. Trnsl8r

    Trnsl8r Blue 85kwh since 12/8/12

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    Super charger, sure, but using battery swap feels a bit like cheating IMO. The record would be more impressive if it was something Average Joe could pull off in real life, at least in theory.
     
  14. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    I calculated the above numbers using the actual Model S graph Tesla posted, and including charging time.

    Extrapolating Tesla's chart, 108 mph gives a range of about 100 miles or so. At that speed, you deplete a full battery in ~56 minutes, then need to wait for it to fill up again (which is the same amount of time regardless of the speed you travel). If you assume 1 hour to charge, a full cycle from topped off battery-->depleted-->topped off again takes 1 hr, 56 minutes, in which you travel 100 miles. So average speed is ~51mph. I fail to see how this is better than an average speed of 57mph traveling at 80 mph.

    In reality, the less number of times you have to stop to charge (get out, plug in, slow down, speed up, etc.), the faster your time will be, so the ideal speed is probably even slower than the peak that these calculations would indicate.
     
  15. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    You would wreck a Model S battery within one day just for bragging rights? I think that Zoe/Leaf/Volt have a battery chemistry suitable for repeated high charge/discharge rates. Tesla chose to go another way (or why did they exclude the 40kWh pack from supercharging?).
     
  16. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

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    It is only 15 or so full charge/discharge cycles. That won't wreak a battery pack. Prolly won't take more than 1% off the total.
     
  17. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    What's a "good enough" and "relatively simple" way to calculate the charge duration required for a partial recharge? For example, suppose I need an additional X mph for Y minutes for the last leg and that the full charge time is estimated at 1 hour via supercharger ... how long do I need to charge to get "just enough" for that?

    (My spreadsheet currently assumes your last charge is a full charge, and I want to improve it.)
     
  18. KBF

    KBF Model S 2017

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    If you want it to be fair, I'm perfectly okay with allowing ICE's to swap out their tanks. :)
    Seriously, I don't see why one would care about fairness. Joe doesn't typically have access to a 3mi racetrack either. And AFAIK battery swap is a very real possibility in the near future; its not fair to the ZOE maybe because they don't have the option :p
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    #19 brianman, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
    Assumptions:
    • Approximate values: I can do a decent job eyeballing the numbers from the Tesla range chart, and rounding range estimates to the nearest 5 miles is "good enough".
    • Linear range behavior across pack sizes / chemistries: The 60 kWh S gets (60/85) times the range of the 85 kWh S, and (40/85) times the range for the 40 kWh S.
    • Extrapolation: From 85 to 130, the range decays essentially linearly. Decay rate per 5mph for Roadster, 85, 60, and 40 approximations were 15, 20, 14, and 9 miles respectively.
    • SWAG: Hours per full charge [HPC] is 1 for all 4 configurations (R, S85, S60, S40).
    • Acceleration and deceleration to/from the average speed is instantaneous.

    Calculations:
    • Range per charge [RPC]: From the chart + assumptions.
    • Duration per charge [DPC]: Range / speed.
    • Full durations (per 24hr race) [FD]: floor(24 / (DPC + HPC))
    • Charging time (per 24hr race) [CT]: FD * HPC
    • Partial duration (last leg of race): 24 - DPC*FD - CT
    • Total duration (of driving) : DPC*FD + PD
      [*]Race range: RPC*TD/DPC



    Optimal speeds:
    • Roadster: 80mph (1280 - 1360 mi.)
    • S 85: 85mph (1445 - 1530 mi.)
    • S 60: 80mph (1280 - 1360 mi.)
    • S 40: 70-75mph (1050 - 1125 mi.)

    Notes:
    • The range numbers (in parenthesis after optimal speeds) represent the range if your last charge is a full charge (first number) to the last charge being a magically instantaneous "just enough" partial charge (second number).
    • Notice how the Roadster and the S 60 match. This can be seen in the graphs as well; above 50mph the curves converge within 5-10 mi of range.

    Code:
    	 Roadster			 Model S		
    			 85kWh		 60kWh		 40kWh
    10	 240.00 	 240.00 	 240.00 	 230.00 
    15	 360.00 	 360.00 	 345.00 	 345.00 
    20	 460.00 	 460.00 	 460.00 	 440.00 
    25	 575.00 	 575.00 	 575.00 	 550.00 
    30	 690.00 	 690.00 	 660.00 	 630.00 
    35	 770.00 	 805.00 	 770.00 	 735.00 
    40	 880.00 	 880.00 	 840.00 	 800.00 
    45	 945.00 	 990.00 	 945.00 	 855.00 
    50	 1,050.00 	 1,050.00 	 1,000.00 	 950.00 
    55	 1,100.00 	 1,155.00 	 1,100.00 	 990.00 
    60	 1,140.00 	 1,200.00 	 1,140.00 	 1,020.00 
    65	 1,235.00 	 1,300.00 	 1,170.00 	 1,040.00 
    70	 1,260.00 	 1,330.00 	 1,190.00 	 [COLOR="#00C000"]1,050.00[/COLOR] 
    75	 1,275.00 	 1,350.00 	 1,275.00 	 [COLOR="#00C000"]1,050.00[/COLOR] 
    80	 [COLOR="#00C000"]1,280.00[/COLOR]	 1,440.00 	 [COLOR="#00C000"]1,280.00[/COLOR] 	 1,040.00 
    85	 1,275.00 	 [COLOR="#00C000"]1,445.00[/COLOR] 	 1,275.00 	 1,020.00 
    90	 1,260.00 	 1,440.00 	 1,260.00 	 990.00 
    95	 1,235.00 	 1,425.00 	 1,140.00 	 950.00 
    100	 1,200.00 	 1,400.00 	 1,100.00 	 900.00 
    105	 1,050.00 	 1,260.00 	 1,050.00 	 840.00 
    110	 990.00 	 1,210.00 	 880.00 	 660.00 
    115	 805.00 	 1,035.00 	 805.00 	 575.00 
    120	 600.00 	 720.00 	 600.00 	 480.00 
    125	 375.00 	 500.00 	 250.00 	 250.00 
     
  20. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    This is the sort of cost that racing teams and performance car companies take in stride. As a consumer, I wouldn't do this. But would Tesla? Sure. Small change for a big marketing push.
     

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