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Older Model S Single or Dual Charger

natalee s3xy

Member
Jul 11, 2019
5
0
Garner, NC
I'm contemplating purchasing an older Model S or a newer Model3. Ideally this is an easy question,... go with the 3 but it really comes down to cost for me.

I know that with overnight charging I can get a full charge with either a single or dual charger in the car but I'm more or less concerned about getting a faster charge in the event that I'm putting on lots of miles a day and need to stop at home to charge up for later in the night.

At the moment I have a 100A box in my garage and the installer is talking about installing a 60A circuit but if I purchase an older Model S that has a dual charger onboard it should be able to handle up to 72A and therefore get a faster charge.

Am I wrong in this thinking, I'm learning here so please be kind?

If I do one day purchase a Long Range or performance Model 3 will something larger support the Model 3's onboard 48A charger.
 

SSedan

Active Member
Jul 24, 2017
2,948
2,589
Greenville Wisconsin
A wall connector on a 100amp circuit to support old school dual chargers at 80 amps total will work just fine at any lower rate. The wall connector has something like 13amperage setting internally from 12-80amps, and then in the car you can set the amperage lower as well. I have an older S with dual chargers but usually keep charging amperage well below 80amps. Usually low 40s as this activates both sharing the load.

Keep in mind newer S and 3 in particular get more range per amp due to greater efficiency.

You have a supercharger nearby I wouldn't let onboard charger size dictate car choice. I have a 7 mile each way commute and install a wall connector at 100amps and am happy to have it coming home from a road trip or the like, but if I had a car with 40-48amp capability I would be fine and I have the additional complication of truly cold weather to deal with.

If the electrician is saying 60amps is the limit just go with I wouldn't jump thru a lot of hoops and a bunch of extra expense to go beyond that. If you needed to run power for a breaker panel in the garage I would say go big as possible but if 60amps is easy it will be just fine.
 
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natalee s3xy

Member
Jul 11, 2019
5
0
Garner, NC
A wall connector on a 100amp circuit to support old school dual chargers at 80 amps total will work just fine at any lower rate. The wall connector has something like 13amperage setting internally from 12-80amps, and then in the car you can set the amperage lower as well. I have an older S with dual chargers but usually keep charging amperage well below 80amps. Usually low 40s as this activates both sharing the load.

Keep in mind newer S and 3 in particular get more range per amp due to greater efficiency.

You have a supercharger nearby I wouldn't let onboard charger size dictate car choice. I have a 7 mile each way commute and install a wall connector at 100amps and am happy to have it coming home from a road trip or the like, but if I had a car with 40-48amp capability I would be fine and I have the additional complication of truly cold weather to deal with.

If the electrician is saying 60amps is the limit just go with I wouldn't jump thru a lot of hoops and a bunch of extra expense to go beyond that. If you needed to run power for a breaker panel in the garage I would say go big as possible but if 60amps is easy it will be just fine.


I'm not worried about Superchargers because when using them the onboard chargers are bypassed and not used at all. It's really just for charging at home or other non-supercharger locations.

It's interesting that you throttle down to the low 40's when charging. What kind of mile per hour charge do you get? If going higher doesn't improve rate then I question why am I shopping for a dual charger anyways?
 

Target

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Apr 9, 2018
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Chicago Land
Welcome to the forum. I will try to be nice.

I have an 2013 Model S with the twin chargers and they support a charge rate of 80 amps from a 100 amp circuit. The twin chargers were an option until the Face Lift redesign cars came along in 2016. The other option on the older S cars was a single 40 A charger. The Face Lift S and the Model X came with a 48 amp or a 72 amp charger option from then until late 2018. After late 2018 only 48 amp option is available in S and X.

Assuming you have a normal house in the US with 240 volt service we can turn each of those into a KW rating.

Older car with Twin chargers 80Ax240V=19.2KW
Older car with single charger 40Ax240V=9.6KW
2016 Face Lift + S/X with standard charger 48Ax240V=11.5KW
2016 Face Lift + S/X with high power charger 72Ax240V=17.2KW
Long range Model 3 48Ax240V=11.5KW
Lower end Model 3 32Ax240V=7.7KW

There is a fair bit of data out there about what the actual capacity of a given car is, but in summary an 85 is really a 77 and a 90 is really an 81 when they were new. Tesla, please stop making up specifications... | wk057's SkieNET...
As they are used they have likely degraded.

Taking that into account a 19.2KW charger can charge an 85 in most cases under 3 hours unless you are trying to get to 100%. Arrive home with 20%, charge to 80% for night on the town, required change 60% = 46.2KWH 46.2/19.2 =2.4 hours before ready to go out for the night.
I have that capability and find it useful.

A Model 3 has a serious efficiency advantage over the older Model S and as such even though the charging rate is lower you can get almost as far with an hour of charging as you can on a 72 A charging Model S. The lower power model 3 charger is a bit sad.

I don't know your situation but the Tesla HPWC can load share, and if you think you might ever add a second Tesla, it would be wise to set it up for the full 80A so you have the ability to load share two cars at the higher rate.


Decent reading on various versions of the S
https://www.teslaadviceblog.com/blog/buying-guide-model-s-versions-1-2-3-and-4

Good place to find out about which charger a used car has, assuming it is for sale by Tesla as a used car
https://ev-cpo.com/hunter/index.php


I glossed over some details there, but hopefully gave you a useful overview. Feel free to ask more questions about any of those topics.
 

SSedan

Active Member
Jul 24, 2017
2,948
2,589
Greenville Wisconsin
I'm not worried about Superchargers because when using them the onboard chargers are bypassed and not used at all. It's really just for charging at home or other non-supercharger locations.

It's interesting that you throttle down to the low 40's when charging. What kind of mile per hour charge do you get? If going higher doesn't improve rate then I question why am I shopping for a dual charger anyways?


I meant that if on some rare occasion you are low on charge heading home or heading out you could hit a supercharger. I really think the occasions where 60amp service is going to be a limiting factor will be very rare.

I don't really pay attention to miles per hour at whatever random amperage setting I use, but based on a single 40amp charger getting 29 miles/hour on I probably get 30 or very low 30s at 42-45amps. I could leave my car charge at 80amps all the time but since I don't need it I don't lean on the infrastructure that hard. Honestly in summer I could get by on a 15amp 120volt circuit since most days are under 20miles. That is inefficient though as the chargers and car electronics take up too big a percentage.
 

Target

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Supporting Member
Apr 9, 2018
560
380
Chicago Land
Older car with Twin chargers 80Ax240V=19.2KW = 64 miles per hour
Older car with single charger 40Ax240V=9.6KW = 32 miles per hour
2016 Face Lift + S with standard charger 48Ax240V=11.5KW = 38 miles per hour
2016 Face Lift + S with high power charger 72Ax240V=17.2KW = 57 miles per hour
Long range Model 3 48Ax240V=11.5KW = 51 miles per hour
Lower end Model 3 32Ax240V=7.7KW = 34 miles per hour

Based on consumption of energy at 300watt hours per mile on Model S or 225watt hours per mile on Model 3.

Consider that the Model 3 LR has almost double the useful range of the old twin charger Model S on long trips due to Super Charger spacing. If you plan to do long road trips, 1000 miles or more, the Model 3 LR is a clear winner, it stops less often and charges faster when it does stop. Driving 1000 miles in an 85 requires some patience. I do it, but recognize how much faster a Model 3 LR is at getting to the destination.
 
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natalee s3xy

Member
Jul 11, 2019
5
0
Garner, NC
Older car with Twin chargers 80Ax240V=19.2KW = 64 miles per hour
Older car with single charger 40Ax240V=9.6KW = 32 miles per hour
2016 Face Lift + S with standard charger 48Ax240V=11.5KW = 38 miles per hour
2016 Face Lift + S with high power charger 72Ax240V=17.2KW = 57 miles per hour
Long range Model 3 48Ax240V=11.5KW = 51 miles per hour
Lower end Model 3 32Ax240V=7.7KW = 34 miles per hour

Based on consumption of energy at 300watt hours per mile on Model S or 225watt hours per mile on Model 3.

Consider that the Model 3 LR has almost double the useful range of the old twin charger Model S on long trips due to Super Charger spacing. If you plan to do long road trips, 1000 miles or more, the Model 3 LR is a clear winner, it stops less often and charges faster when it does stop. Driving 1000 miles in an 85 requires some patience. I do it, but recognize how much faster a Model 3 LR is at getting to the destination.

True and thank you. I'm now looking at having a 90A circuit installed and having it run through my new Tesla wall charger. This way if I purchase an older Model S, I'm prepared to charge ~64 miles per hour at home. If I instead or can financially afford to someday upgrade to the Model 3 then I'll be okay anyways, right?
 

SSedan

Active Member
Jul 24, 2017
2,948
2,589
Greenville Wisconsin
I think the older dual charger cars only see 58miles/hour at 80amps to the car which is 100amp circuit. On a 90amp circuit 72 amp delivered expect 52miles.
Newer cars are more efficient and get a bit more range for the power delivered I think this creates some confusion in documents.
 

dk10438

Member
Dec 23, 2016
359
190
Ranch Palos Verdes
I think the older dual charger cars only see 58miles/hour at 80amps to the car which is 100amp circuit. On a 90amp circuit 72 amp delivered expect 52miles.
Newer cars are more efficient and get a bit more range for the power delivered I think this creates some confusion in documents.
+1
HPWC set to 80A. My car accepts 72A and I get 51m/h

my friends M3 AWD gets something like 45 m/h @48A I think??
 

Big Earl

bnkwupt
Supporting Member
Jul 12, 2017
5,937
11,144
Springfield, VA
I think the older dual charger cars only see 58miles/hour at 80amps to the car which is 100amp circuit. On a 90amp circuit 72 amp delivered expect 52miles.
Newer cars are more efficient and get a bit more range for the power delivered I think this creates some confusion in documents.

To add some more confusion, you can get 22 kW out of a dual charger Model S if you have a 100 amp circuit on 277 volt commercial power. That’ll charge at right around 70 MPH.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming. Bottom line, if you have the spare electrical capacity, you might as well use it. You can always add a second (or third or fourth) wall connector onto that same circuit if more Teslas show up in the driveway.
 
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Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,299
7,596
Canyon Lake,CA
People always find a way around edge cases. If 99% of the time you would use more than your battery capacity, and need to quickly charge at home before going out again, then you will find a way around it.
You can charge to 100% before going out that morning. Will give you extra reserve.
You can charge up at work.
You can stop at a Supercharger for a few minutes.
You can stop at a destination charger for some boost.
You can come home and get the juice you need before going back out, but easier to just stay plugged in for an extra 30 minutes.

You might also check to see if a 2nd on board charger can be added to the Model you are interested in.

Bottom line, this has not seemed to be an issue for most owners.
 

ewoodrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2018
5,285
4,269
Buford, GA
Most any car is going to essentially charge overnight, even as low as 40A.
The only time that it even thinks about being an issue would be doing a 300 mile day, get home late and leaving early for another 300 mile day.
And then that assumes that you don’t have any Superchargers near you. I don’t really think that you need to worry about it. Odds are that it will probably never happen. Last thing that I want to do after driving 300 miles is to drive some more.

You’ve got classic range anxiety. No matter what we say, you’ll be worried about it, until you get some experience and then wonder what you were thinking.
My wife charges off o f 120V and even then, only once or twice a week. I charge off a NEMA 14-50, again once or twice a week.
 

Target

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Supporting Member
Apr 9, 2018
560
380
Chicago Land
90amp circuit will serve you well into the future no matter what you go for. It will support two cars and possibly more depending on your usage.

I like the fact that you are planning ahead and doing the charging before buying a car. I rarely see anyone else do that.
 
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natalee s3xy

Member
Jul 11, 2019
5
0
Garner, NC
Most any car is going to essentially charge overnight, even as low as 40A.
The only time that it even thinks about being an issue would be doing a 300 mile day, get home late and leaving early for another 300 mile day.
And then that assumes that you don’t have any Superchargers near you. I don’t really think that you need to worry about it. Odds are that it will probably never happen. Last thing that I want to do after driving 300 miles is to drive some more.

You’ve got classic range anxiety. No matter what we say, you’ll be worried about it, until you get some experience and then wonder what you were thinking.
My wife charges off o f 120V and even then, only once or twice a week. I charge off a NEMA 14-50, again once or twice a week.


I'm not heavily worried about it. My estimates will likely average what you and your wife do. I'll probably only have to charge once or twice a week. I do however plan to Uber to help pay for my new car so this is where the concern comes in. I know that it's frowned upon to always use the superchargers. I haven't yet figured out if overuse is prohibited for my local supercharger.
 

SSedan

Active Member
Jul 24, 2017
2,948
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Greenville Wisconsin
Low speeds often stretch range. At one point Tesla had a range calculator that let you input speed and 45mph I want to say they estimated my 265mile range P85 was 400miles. Heat and AC can diminish as can stop and go particularly if not good at using regen and high speeds hurt. "Drafting" helps though and you do NOT need to be dangerously close.

Guess my point is range use is not mile=mile. Also be aware the longer the heat or AC run kind of the lesser effect they have on range.

I live near Green Bay with a short commute, heating can cause my energy use to near triple on short drives but if I am in the car for hours is is like an extra 15% not triple. AC can do similar things just not to that drastic extent.
 

Target

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Supporting Member
Apr 9, 2018
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Chicago Land
Uber/Lyft are tough with a new or high end car. The mileage you put on (total mileage, not just the miles with passengers) eats up most if not all of the income. In one sense this is good, as you don't have to pay taxes on the revenue, but that means your time was donated. The real issue comes in when the actual depreciation per mile on the car exceeds the federal mileage rate, then you are losing money driving Uber/Lyft.

With so many nice restaurants offering delivery these days, and with their limited delivery area, it might make more economic sense to deliver for a high end restaurant. Big tips, low miles.

I am only speculating, I have never delivered food for a living nor driven for Uber Lyft. But when I did some math on the rates published by Uber and assumed something much less than perfect utilization I found that the income probably just covered the federal mileage rate. The federal mileage rate would have only covered half of the real depreciation on my previous 2014 Model S.
 
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natalee s3xy

Member
Jul 11, 2019
5
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Garner, NC
Uber/Lyft are tough with a new or high end car. The mileage you put on (total mileage, not just the miles with passengers) eats up most if not all of the income. In one sense this is good, as you don't have to pay taxes on the revenue, but that means your time was donated. The real issue comes in when the actual depreciation per mile on the car exceeds the federal mileage rate, then you are losing money driving Uber/Lyft.

With so many nice restaurants offering delivery these days, and with their limited delivery area, it might make more economic sense to deliver for a high end restaurant. Big tips, low miles.

I am only speculating, I have never delivered food for a living nor driven for Uber Lyft. But when I did some math on the rates published by Uber and assumed something much less than perfect utilization I found that the income probably just covered the federal mileage rate. The federal mileage rate would have only covered half of the real depreciation on my previous 2014 Model S.


So I calculated things a little differently. Based on some average uber rate I've seen I should be able to make about $50 a night. If I drove for 3 nights out of the week that's $150 extra a week. At most, I speculate this level of driving will cost me about $30 for the week in electrical costs. This brings my weekly average down to $120 or about $480 a week that I didn't have before. Teslas hold their value very well so I'm not too worried about depreciation but I might be worried about tire replacements.
 

Target

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So I calculated things a little differently. Based on some average uber rate I've seen I should be able to make about $50 a night. If I drove for 3 nights out of the week that's $150 extra a week. At most, I speculate this level of driving will cost me about $30 for the week in electrical costs. This brings my weekly average down to $120 or about $480 a week that I didn't have before. Teslas hold their value very well so I'm not too worried about depreciation but I might be worried about tire replacements.

I owned a 2014 model S P85+ from April 2018 to April 2019 and drove 18,000 miles, when I traded it in I got about $18,000 less than I paid for it. The car did have higher miles and went from 73K to 91K and that didn't help the situation. I should also advise that if I would have accepted Tesla's trade in offer, it would have cost me $25k for that one year. At the time I bought it I did very well. The values just dropped that much over the next 12 months. Will that happen again? I don't know.

On your math above, how many miles were required to get that $50? If you had to drive 100 or more miles to make that $50, then you are spending your time to turn vehicle value into cash. You are proposing that Tesla's hold their value, and they might, but being incorrect about that assumption could cost you thousands of dollars in a single year. I don't want to see you end up seriously upside down on the car and get into financial trouble, Tesla's are awesome, but not worth serious financial stress. I was lucky enough to be able to afford that $18k hit in value, and even went into the situation with the realization that the car would likely cost me a dollar a mile to drive. It did, without accounting for any maintenance or tires I went through. I want you to have a Tesla, but not if it puts serious stress on you.
 

ewoodrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2018
5,285
4,269
Buford, GA
Uber/Lyft are tough with a new or high end car. The mileage you put on (total mileage, not just the miles with passengers) eats up most if not all of the income. In one sense this is good, as you don't have to pay taxes on the revenue, but that means your time was donated. The real issue comes in when the actual depreciation per mile on the car exceeds the federal mileage rate, then you are losing money driving Uber/Lyft.

With so many nice restaurants offering delivery these days, and with their limited delivery area, it might make more economic sense to deliver for a high end restaurant. Big tips, low miles.

I am only speculating, I have never delivered food for a living nor driven for Uber Lyft. But when I did some math on the rates published by Uber and assumed something much less than perfect utilization I found that the income probably just covered the federal mileage rate. The federal mileage rate would have only covered half of the real depreciation on my previous 2014 Model S.

I wish you luck, I'm just not sure how well your numbers will fit in Raleigh. I was in a Lyft this morning, well simply put, it had been ridden hard.
Some of the real world numbers that I've hears, especially in the heavily used NYC are is that making minimum wage is hard to do. At least you can try it and just give up if it isn't for you.
 

BrokerDon

Active Member
Aug 23, 2014
1,415
1,345
Newport Coast, CA
2015 P85D with dual 40A onboard chargers with 45,000 miles (90% charge = 223 miles):

Charging on our Tesla gen1 HPWC installed on a 100A breaker (240V single phase service) by Tesla's recommended licensed electrician with building permits.

Charging at 80A on = 54 MPH charge rate

Charging at 80A heats up the HPWC plug, HPWC cable and Tesla charging socket so we ONLY charge at 80A when we need a FAST boost. Typically we charge at 60A (42 MPH) overnight which keeps the HPWC plug and Tesla charge port at a comfortable temperature. Heat KILLS electronics & plastics so this makes more sense for our nightly charging and still recharges our P85D's battery easily by the middle of the night.

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_3f75.jpg
4kz1VPEMRVGtLClHItXdKQ_thumb_555c.jpg
 
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