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Older Teslas limited to 90kW Supercharging

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by ckessel, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. dennis

    dennis P85D

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    The real problem is:

    1) They didn't tell us that only a subset of the 85kwh cars would be able to charge at 120kW and
    2) They haven't told us if an upgrade to get this capability is or will be available, whether free or paid

    Once again, owners have a right to be upset with non-existent/poor communication from Tesla. Tesla has known about this limitation for months and made no effort to communicate it to the affected owners.
     
  2. apacheguy

    apacheguy S Sig #255

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    +1 dennis. It amazes me how often we have to rely on TMC to "break the news" when Tesla ought to be communciating better with its loyal customer base.

    To those who don't think Sigs have a right to complain, let me just add 2 more points to this discussion.

    1. A Telsa Service advisor once described to me what makes Tesla service so great. I remember exactly what he said because I thought it was so awesome:

    "If we know there's a part that works better in your car, we will give it to you."

    2. In a separate conversation with my local service manager regarding the loud A/C compressor noise I was told that if Tesla makes some modification to newer models to reduce the noise that they would be applying the same fix to my car.

    I had a lot of respect for TM service and the motto they stood by. However, recently I have begun to question the sincerity of that motto. If Telsa makes no effort to support the earliest adopters then I will truly be disappointed.
     
  3. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Minor correction: $3,550 or $5,050 - Depending on whether you opt for Perf.
     
  4. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    I have VIN 9846, MS60, Fastest I can get is 92 when I have a SC all to myself. And I will be testing that much more now that Mauston WI Supercharger is online.
     
  5. deonb

    deonb Supporting Member

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    Different issue. The site has always stated this:

    "How long does it take to Supercharge?Superchargers are capable delivering up to 50% battery capacity in about 20 minutes."

    On a 60, that works out to be 90kW.
     
  6. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    There are at least 4 major ingredients required for supercharging:

    -Battery Capacity: The battery chemistry has a maximum safe charge rate ("C"=size of pack in kWh). Somewhere around 1.5C is what the safe rate has been demonstrated thus far. For the smaller pack with fewer batteries, it must limit the power the car can accept to avoid exceeding it's safe charge rate.

    -Bypass Contactor: This is the unit in the vehicle that bypasses the on-board AC chargers and connects the DC supercharger input to the battery directly. As with all electrical switching equipment, it must be safely rated for a certain amount of power during operation.

    -Wiring:
    The wiring (including charge port contacts) must be sized sufficiently to handle the input current.

    -Firmware: The cars must have appropriate firmware to negotiate the faster rate with the chargers.


    So even though a car may have the larger battery, and have received the latest firmware, it may not have all the other hardware pieces to charge at the higher rate. And for a 60, the pack itself may always be a limiting factor.
     
  7. nrcooled

    nrcooled P#8946 VIN 03225

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    This is great news since I am 3225

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
     
  8. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

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    Fair enough. But I don't think communication has been good from Tesla that 60 owners would not benefit from the new SCs and/or newer software. There has been a lot of discussion about taper rates improving which certainly led me to think that with the new SCs and newer software we'd see faster charging rates, even if that really was only 5 minutes or so to get to 80% (and what 80% is now versus what it was 6 months ago for many 60 owners is a whole separate thread). I didn't expect my charge time to be cut in half, but I did expect some improvement. Sounds like that will not be the case, unless people start reporting real world improvement in the tapering.
     
  9. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Because tapering is about protecting the battery, I don't foresee any change there using any of the existing batteries.
     
  10. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

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    Waiting to hear from others with real world experience. I'm not the only 60 owner who will be disappointed if we see no change -- whether tapering or in outright top charging rate -- after the repeated touting of the newer SCs and software.
     
  11. apacheguy

    apacheguy S Sig #255

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    We're starting to get off topic here, but let me address the concerns of 60 kw owners so that we can move on. Provided that you guys now get ~90 kw that would be a substantial improvement over 4.x. You guys used to max out at 70 kw. Obviously your battery size will not support 120 kw, but you need to put that in perspective because at the end of the day your car will charge much faster under 5.x. I would jumping up and down if I were a 60 owner.

    Meanwhile, us early adopters are stuck with the same 90kw even though we have a larger battery pack. I have not observed any improvement in charging time.
     
  12. Aphysician

    Aphysician Member, Michigan Chapter

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    #112 Aphysician, Dec 7, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
    @apacheguy, @scaesare and @deonb

    Thank you for putting things in perspective. I haven't used a supercharger till now, and didn't know what it was like before. I agree an improvement from 70 KW to 90 KW is significant, and supercharging may be faster now. Do we have an early 60 kWh owner who has experienced this (unlikely as early cars were mainly 85 kWh), if so then how much of a benefit was it overall?

    Q for @apacheguy, so the 60 kWh owners will get 90 KW at 120 KW stations and will get 70 KW at 90 KW stations, or 90 KW no matter whatever supercharger capacity?

    It seems that for for signature owners bypass connector and wiring may be an issue, but for 60 kWh pack itself may be a limiting factor. It would be interesting to see whether 60 kWh have been fitted with upgraded hardware, so they can accept 120 KW when they battery swap the pack. I think Tesla should do that.
     
  13. FredTMC

    FredTMC Model S VIN #4925

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    Apparently we still don't have confirmation. I like your comment about 85 battery swap. I certainly hope TM supports swap from 60 to 85. I'm v much looking forward to trying this on road trips. And yes, I assume the swapped 85 battery will charge at 120kw but it may be that 60s don't have sufficient SC cabling to support it. TBD.
     
  14. Benjamin Brooks

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    +1
    Exactly correct I believe
     
  15. jp158

    jp158 Member

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    What is the bottom line here!
    Does 85kw no matter what have the capability ??? no matter what Vin Number?

    Does the 60kw have the capability? No matter what Vin Number?

    Thanks
     
  16. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

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    At this point, it's just a matter of waiting for more info (I'm the OP).

    I emailed Tesla Wednesday to have them check the logs on my car and find out why I wasn't getting 120kwh. Tesla called me on Thursday (props for a quick turn around) and said they'd checked the logs and my older VIN only supported 90kwh. I then asked most of the questions we've asked here: will it retrofit, what's the cost, where was the cutoff, etc. Hopefully I'll hear back next week.
     
  17. nrcooled

    nrcooled P#8946 VIN 03225

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    Agreed and at the end of the day I still have exactly what I paid for.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
     
  18. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    Based on experiences of several, it looks like no.... but we don't have an official word on what the limiting factor is.

    Based on what's been observed charging rates of the battery chemistry, not likely to do full 120kW, and perhaps not much more than they are already doing today with the 90kW chargers.
     
  19. CanuckS#69

    CanuckS#69 Member

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    I'm also curious as to where the cutoff is considering that the early 2000 VINs were assigned to Canadian Sigs, which were likely manufactured after middle 2000 US VINs, so they may or may not be affected.
     
  20. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

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    Thanks, and I hope your hypothesis of improved charging rates for 60 owners is correct. But I'll wait to celebrate until I see more reports from 60 owners on real world experience showing an improvement from 4.x (and even then, I don't see myself jumping up and down with glee).
     

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