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Older Teslas limited to 90kW Supercharging

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I would be interested in participating in the conference call if allowed. Any particulars yet...

Sorry, but I did not organize the owners conference call (no Tesla representatives will be on the line as far as I know) so I can't invite anyone else. There are 18 owners already included in the conference call (last I heard both Sig's and early general production A packs) so it should be large enough for a diverse representaive discussion but small enough to actually have a discussion with recommendations and action steps. After 100 pages, if anyone has any NEW ideas you are free to post them....but again, let's take a breath and let this process work itself out.
 
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With no disrespect, if Elon Musk had come to your home, sat at your kitchen table and made verbal promises in exchange for legal consideration that you then gave, maybe, just maybe there could be a verbal contract in there somewhere. Sales "puffery" and marketing rhetoric at a press event will never become a "verbal contract" with any and all schlubs who thereafter click on the video on YouTube, especially those who've already purchased their cars.

Our sales contracts with Tesla state clearly that Tesla can make changes to its cars at any time in its sole discretion, without obligation to make the same or similar changes to any other car(s), including especially the ones they've already sold. I agree this is a major communication foul-up by Tesla towards its customers, but a legal problem for them it is not.

I'm not saying that it's a contract with whomever clicks the video. It depends on who he said it applies to. This is more than sales puffery and marketing rhetoric. If you make a certain offer, you have to stand by it. I have no idea of what was said specifically about 120 kW supercharging, but I'm certain that regarding the warranty covering fire damage, Elon made it very clear that it was covered, and Tesla will have to stand by that, written or not.
 
I'm not saying that it's a contract with whomever clicks the video. It depends on who he said it applies to. This is more than sales puffery and marketing rhetoric. If you make a certain offer, you have to stand by it. I have no idea of what was said specifically about 120 kW supercharging, but I'm certain that regarding the warranty covering fire damage, Elon made it very clear that it was covered, and Tesla will have to stand by that, written or not.

The fire damage coverage was written. We all should have gotten it as a newsletter direct from Tesla and with Elon's name at the end.
 
Finally got a phone call in response to my inquiry about my car (VIN 8387, April 2013, "A" Battery, 90kW-limit)... Basically, not apologetic at all and just stated that cars were all optimized for then-current Supercharging and that the newer cars cost more. When I pointed out that vehicles that are older and cheaper than mine have faster charge rate, he didn't really have a response except to re-iterate his original statement. Disappointing to see they are being so defensive and non-apologetic about this.
 
Finally got a phone call in response to my inquiry about my car (VIN 8387, April 2013, "A" Battery, 90kW-limit)... Basically, not apologetic at all and just stated that cars were all optimized for then-current Supercharging and that the newer cars cost more. When I pointed out that vehicles that are older and cheaper than mine have faster charge rate, he didn't really have a response except to re-iterate his original statement. Disappointing to see they are being so defensive and non-apologetic about this.

unfortunately the person you spoke with is probably some intern or newbie grad just working the phones and ticket system and probably doesn't know a thing about the MS outside of the basics. In other words, he probably doesn't have a clue what your talking about because he's not a technical engineer. He's just reading off of a ticket. Need to get the complaint elevated to a manager with authority and the knowledge. I'd just keep complaining. If enough people do it, I'd think they would do something about it. If nobody complains, then why would they do anything about it?
 
Finally got a response after many follow-ups:

Thank you for contacting Tesla Motors. I am following up on a prior question you had sent in regarding Supercharging rates. At the time of your vehicle’s production and assembly, the highest rate of charge for the existing Supercharging Network was the 90kW standard. All battery packs made in that timeframe were designed, tested, and manufactured to comply with this level of charge. As the company’s offerings continued to advance and improved technologies were developed and implemented, the 120kW charging system emerged. Unfortunately, the original configuration of the Model S was not optimized to handle the new charge rate (which was developed later), and out of a high level of caution, the supercharging rate for earlier Model S is sustained at the 90kW maximum rate.
 
Finally got a phone call in response to my inquiry about my car (VIN 8387, April 2013, "A" Battery, 90kW-limit)... Basically, not apologetic at all and just stated that cars were all optimized for then-current Supercharging and that the newer cars cost more. When I pointed out that vehicles that are older and cheaper than mine have faster charge rate, he didn't really have a response except to re-iterate his original statement. Disappointing to see they are being so defensive and non-apologetic about this.
While I wasn't happy with my Dec 2012 being a slightly outdated A battery, yours being outdated is downright absurd. Tesla had been shipping B batteries for 4 months at that point.

The charging difference doesn't apparently end up being that large, but the way Tesla has handled this has left me soured on the company. Some folks here will roll their eyes at me, but I've stopped recommending the company and I've stopped parroting Tesla material when I get questions about things like battery degradation.

I was willing to take a chance on Tesla with the S because Roadster owners were so adamant about Tesla going above and beyond with transparency and integrity. I'm sure it was true then. Now, Tesla is acting much like any other car company at this point, except with even more vagueness (I still have no idea what my prepaid service actually covers).

I was convinced I was a Gen3 buyer regardless of what Audi or BMW came out with down the line. That's not true anymore. Tesla may win out with the better car when I go shopping, but at this rate they won't be scoring any points as a better company. I hope they fix this. They may not be able to give the customer attention they had in the Roadster days, but they can still act with transparency and integrity.
 
While I wasn't happy with my Dec 2012 being a slightly outdated A battery, yours being outdated is downright absurd. Tesla had been shipping B batteries for 4 months at that point.

The charging difference doesn't apparently end up being that large, but the way Tesla has handled this has left me soured on the company. Some folks here will roll their eyes at me, but I've stopped recommending the company and I've stopped parroting Tesla material when I get questions about things like battery degradation.

I was willing to take a chance on Tesla with the S because Roadster owners were so adamant about Tesla going above and beyond with transparency and integrity. I'm sure it was true then. Now, Tesla is acting much like any other car company at this point, except with even more vagueness (I still have no idea what my prepaid service actually covers).

I was convinced I was a Gen3 buyer regardless of what Audi or BMW came out with down the line. That's not true anymore. Tesla may win out with the better car when I go shopping, but at this rate they won't be scoring any points as a better company. I hope they fix this. They may not be able to give the customer attention they had in the Roadster days, but they can still act with transparency and integrity.
I agree with you that Tesla's communication is non-existant, and that is not good, but sometimes I wonder if people could handle the cold hard truth from Tesla or any company for that matter. Many people are very unrealistic, and they freak out when things don't go their way. The truth may just make the freaking out worse than it already is.
 
Finally got a phone call in response to my inquiry about my car (VIN 8387, April 2013, "A" Battery, 90kW-limit)... Basically, not apologetic at all and just stated that cars were all optimized for then-current Supercharging and that the newer cars cost more. When I pointed out that vehicles that are older and cheaper than mine have faster charge rate, he didn't really have a response except to re-iterate his original statement. Disappointing to see they are being so defensive and non-apologetic about this.

I know it's not what some people want to hear, but what he said make complete sense.

It's fairly common when companies get parts from multiple sources, or the same source over a period of time, that some of the parts are actually higher spec than required. Some times higher spec parts are cheaper, or more redly available, etc.

During the period in question, Panasonic most likely started making B packs and there were still A packs available. Telsa could have slowed production and only used A packs until all were exhausted. Instead they started using over spec'ed B packs alongside the original spec'ed A packs (i.e. whatever was available, as long as it was higher than the spec at the time). At some point B packs were abundant enough, they changed the new min spec and all subsequent cars had B packs.

Tesla could have gimped all the B packs installed before the new specs went into effect (most companied would do that, even waiting until the next model year to enable them as a new feature), but instead they enabled everyone who had them to use them. I think this is a positive not a negative thing, as many people who bought cars before the official specs changed can benefit from the over spec parts.
 
but sometimes I wonder if people could handle the cold hard truth from Tesla or any company for that matter. Many people are very unrealistic, and they freak out when things don't go their way. The truth may just make the freaking out worse than it already is.
This is a great excuse for lying in general. Politicians tend to use it. Just saying.
 
Tesla could have gimped all the B packs installed before the new specs went into effect (most companied would do that, even waiting until the next model year to enable them as a new feature), but instead they enabled everyone who had them to use them. I think this is a positive not a negative thing, as many people who bought cars before the official specs changed can benefit from the over spec parts.
Well, +1 for a glass half full view. That's not my take, but I can respect it.

Unfortunately, for every guy that got a 120kwh ahead of time, some other poor SOB got a 90kwh late in the sequence. It's a hard sell to tell the guy with the April delivery that all those other people before him got "bonus", but he should feel good about it.
 
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Unfortunately, for every guy that got a 120kwh ahead of time, some other poor SOB got a 90kwh late in the sequence. It's a hard sell to tell the guy with the April delivery that all those other people before him got "bonus", but he should feel good about it.

Yes, that is definitely true. and I don't know what's best. Should they limit all the others that could benefit, just so a few can feel good? That is in effect what most companies do. I think Tesla was trying to be different and in the rush to get stuff out to as many people as possible, they have left some feeling left out.

I had something similar happen when I installed my solar panels. The contract was for Twenty 230W panels, but when the install date came, they could not get enough 230's so they substituted 240W panels. I got lucky, but the next install probably got the 230W panels they payed for. It only sucks for him, if he knows I got the free 10W extra. Similarly, I would probably be a bumbed if I found they limited the output of the 240W panels to 230W since that's all I payed for.
 
But, this is not what happened here. Everyone was sold 230W panels, and then the panel Manufacturer made a huge deal about there being a software updating coming that would be rolled out to all customers that will turn your 230W panels into 300W. This update would be fantastic, and be available in a few months and helps show what a great company they are and how they support their customers. Come six months later it rolls out and you get the update but your power generated doesn't seem likes it's changed. You even call the manufacturer and talk about what could be wrong and they tell you that you must be looking at the numbers wrong because of course you should be seeing 300W a panel now. Then weeks and weeks later it starts to come out that perhaps not everyone gets to have 300W panels....

Yes, that is definitely true. and I don't know what's best. Should they limit all the others that could benefit, just so a few can feel good? That is in effect what most companies do. I think Tesla was trying to be different and in the rush to get stuff out to as many people as possible, they have left some feeling left out.

I had something similar happen when I installed my solar panels. The contract was for Twenty 230W panels, but when the install date came, they could not get enough 230's so they substituted 240W panels. I got lucky, but the next install probably got the 230W panels they payed for. It only sucks for him, if he knows I got the free 10W extra. Similarly, I would probably be a bumbed if I found they limited the output of the 240W panels to 230W since that's all I payed for.
 
Now Tesla is lying? Lol. There is a huge difference between communication problems, and lying.

IMHO, Tesla has been misleading to the point of lying. Saying that 120 kW will be fully rolled out to customers via a software update and then have that turn out to be false? Having my DS as well as ownership confirm that supercharging speed will be increasing on my car and then have that turn out to be false?
 
But, this is not what happened here. Everyone was sold 230W panels, and then the panel Manufacturer made a huge deal about there being a software updating coming that would be rolled out to all customers that will turn your 230W panels into 300W. This update would be fantastic, and be available in a few months and helps show what a great company they are and how they support their customers. Come six months later it rolls out and you get the update but your power generated doesn't seem likes it's changed. You even call the manufacturer and talk about what could be wrong and they tell you that you must be looking at the numbers wrong because of course you should be seeing 300W a panel now. Then weeks and weeks later it starts to come out that perhaps not everyone gets to have 300W panels....

My example is not a perfect fit, it's fairly similar (Also, it was not solar City, if anyone is wondering)

A made up scenario that is closer to the Model S issue, would be if everyone ordered and paid for 230W panels. Some got 230W and some got 240W, whatever was available at install time, but the inverter is limited to 230W. At some point a software update is available for the inverter which lets it use up to 240W for panels that can handle it. Now do you let everyone have it that can use it, or just people who buy after the inverter update is available? Most companies would just sit quietly on the inverter improvement, and release a new product called Inverter 2, and only people who buy it and explicitly pay for 240W panels can get the benefits.
 
It's fairly common when companies get parts from multiple sources, or the same source over a period of time, that some of the parts are actually higher spec than required. Some times higher spec parts are cheaper, or more redly available, etc.

During the period in question, Panasonic most likely started making B packs and there were still A packs available. Telsa could have slowed production and only used A packs until all were exhausted. Instead they started using over spec'ed B packs alongside the original spec'ed A packs (i.e. whatever was available, as long as it was higher than the spec at the time). At some point B packs were abundant enough, they changed the new min spec and all subsequent cars had B packs.

Tesla could have gimped all the B packs installed before the new specs went into effect (most companied would do that, even waiting until the next model year to enable them as a new feature), but instead they enabled everyone who had them to use them. I think this is a positive not a negative thing, as many people who bought cars before the official specs changed can benefit from the over spec parts.
See, that's an explanation that could actually make sense - after all, if part of what makes a "B" pack special is a tweak to the battery cells, Panasonic is unlikely to be able to switch over production from A cells to B cells at a moment's notice. Even if they could, they would likely want to slowly switch over so that they can be sure that the "B" cell production ramps up properly.

Now if only Tesla would just communicate that to owners instead of just leaving them guessing...