-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Even though I have a "40" kWh version of the Model S and have not unlocked the additional battery capacity or supercharger access yet, I went ahead and checked, and I have an "A" battery pack as well. So, VIN 10103 was delivered in mid-May 2013 with "A" batteries (as I suspect all 40s were). This makes sense to me that they would put "A" batteries in 40s since we were never suppose to have the possibility of supercharger access in the first place. However, I do find it surprising that they still had "A" batteries as late as May of 2013.
OMG we agree!
- - - Updated - - -
I'm saying statistics related to a range/trip charge have no value to me w/r/t Supercharger user experience. Tesla's latest "position" talks about the impact on user experience and that's what I care about; not manufactured calculations to minimize the "WTF is with the A battery packs" situation.
- - - Updated - - -
While agree with the thought conceptually ("Why would a 40 ever care about supercharging rates?"), the reality and timeline kills that off.
At the moment they decided "40 will be delivered as a software-limited-60" and offered to "40->60->60+SC" upgrade plans, this thinking went out the window.
I understand what you are saying; although, all* of us 40s finalized our orders prior to Tesla's software-limited 60 announcement. So, we all finalized our orders with the complete expectation that we would be receiving 40 kWh battery packs without the possibility for Supercharger access. However, given that we now do have the possibility to upgrade, they should communicate that, if we upgrade, we will be limited to 90 kW with the superchargers. Again, back to a very long-standing poor communication issue with Tesla.
* I think I remember seeing a post of at least one 40 order placed on the day Tesla made the software-limited announcement (just after the announcement and before they removed the 40 from the website ordering process).
Ok, now I'm really lost. Perhaps you are replying to something other than me and accidentally clicked on my post? If you did mean to respond to me, let me recap what I was saying:
Apacheguy posted charge rates for 90kW and 120kW between his car and another. He used rated miles to show his points. I asked what his capacity of his battery is. It turns out his capacity is almost 8 percent different than than the 120kW data. This does make a difference because when one car is at about 80% the other is almost at 90% but their rated miles are the same. The taper curves are controlled by the SOC (State of Charge) of the battery, not by the number of rated miles shown.
A quick pathological example: A battery pack degrades to 50% from what it was new (it's rated miles at full are now 133 rated miles instead of 265). The taper for that car will begin at about 45 rated miles, not the 90 rated miles of a new battery.
Peter
Don't minimize the importance of having our information correct and a good understanding of what is going on. If I am going to tell Jerome that he is wrong, I want to be able to back up what I am saying and be able to prove it.
Last edited:
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
It's a sad day when passionate, long-time Tesla advocates - who put their money and time into helping make Tesla successful - such as Ben/cinergi, NigelM and Brianman end up disillusioned with this debacle that Tesla has created, primarily due to poor communication and secondarily, due to a product launch time line and circumstances that they were winging it through a year and a bit ago.
Upgrading 3,000 battery packs - $12 million
Keeping passionate, repeat, lifetime customers - Priceless
Yes, but you have a software-limited 60kWh pack. All the 60kWh packs are "A" packs so far, but they are capable of charging above 90kW. The consensus is that 60kWh "A" Packs use the same cells as the 85kWh "B" packs. The "A" versus "B" discussion is only relevant to 85kWh packs.
None of this distinction is documented anywhere near the supercharger marketing page on the TeslaMotors site. Nothing in Jerome's mail talks about "the 4 min thing" only works if you compare identically degraded packs, etc. Tesla's pages talk about hard numbers like 20 minutes and use blanket phrasing that indicates all Model S vehicles. Consumers shouldn't have to wade through "well, you have to use an identical degraded pack and have identical weather and charge at the same time on the same cord at the same supercharger slot and...". Essentially if you keep going on the path of requirements, it's basically impossible to do an identical test because you can't use the exact same charger at the exact same time.
What I'm saying is far more simple.
Take two cars. Both 85 or both P85. One car has an A pack, while the other car has a newer pack. Drive them "in reasonably the same way" (wheels, tires, AC settings, etc.) and take them on an identical route using the same superchargers. The one with the A pack will have a significantly shorter overall charging time regardless of which route you choose. And it damn well won't be "4 min * superchargers_used". Jerome knows it, and so does everyone else that crafted the formal message; otherwise, they never would have updated the Supercharging page to tout the benefits of 120 kW charging and the new taper.
Last edited:
tomsax
Member
Battery Pack Part Number and Max Charge Rate Added to Plug In America Model S Survey
To help track the maximum Supercharger charge rate, and anything else related to different battery pack revisions, I've added fields to the Plug In America Model S survey for the battery pack part number and the maximum Supercharger charge rate.
Since the vehicles report page is already pretty full width-wise, I've added a new page to just show vehicles that have reported their battery pack part number and/or maximum charge rate.
Model S Survey Battery Pack Report
For anyone who hasn't filled out the survey before, the form is here:
Model S Survey Form
For those who have filled it out previously and would like to add the battery pack info, the update form is here:
Model S Survey Update Form
The full survey data can be downloaded from the site by anyone who wants to work with it. There are links at the bottom of the results, vehicles, and battery pack report pages.
To help track the maximum Supercharger charge rate, and anything else related to different battery pack revisions, I've added fields to the Plug In America Model S survey for the battery pack part number and the maximum Supercharger charge rate.
Since the vehicles report page is already pretty full width-wise, I've added a new page to just show vehicles that have reported their battery pack part number and/or maximum charge rate.
Model S Survey Battery Pack Report
For anyone who hasn't filled out the survey before, the form is here:
Model S Survey Form
For those who have filled it out previously and would like to add the battery pack info, the update form is here:
Model S Survey Update Form
The full survey data can be downloaded from the site by anyone who wants to work with it. There are links at the bottom of the results, vehicles, and battery pack report pages.
This is incorrect. Discoducky has been able to charge at, IIRC, 105 kW with his 60 kWh vehicle. I can't remember if he posted his pack information, but I'd be willing to bet it's not an "A".
HansK has an A and charges at 105, from Battery table wiki
| HansK | 7850 | T10C0008247 | 397 | 1020422-00-A | Mar 2013 | S60 | yes (105kw) |
Either way it is a different part number so you can't really take the rev to mean the same thing.
Tom,
Like I stated before(when you first started the report), the Model S battery pack report has a fatal flaw. It only seems to measure how much out of balance some Model S packs are. All it is going to do is create FUD about degradation that is not there.
Look at post #28 please.
Model s at 40,000 Miles - Page 3
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Yup; finally got to look at my pack's label. I was able to do 105 kW too at Tejon and Gilroy recently:
Which was the intent of my post. Brianman just seems to want to tell me I'm wrong every time I say anything.
I've read this thread on and off for a while - it's very hard to comb through 1,200+ posts to get to the various chunks of meat in the thread. This thread may qualify for a wiki summary entry that contains the definition of the problem -- which cars are affected, taper graphs and time (excellent work, btw), the response from Tesla, and perhaps any other pertinent facts/user polling/etc.
Then I thought I might weigh in with my thoughts -- from just another chicken in the roost.
When I signed up to purchase a Model S, I figured on a great amount of flexibility. The ability to update the car's software and add features remotely was incredible and was unprecedented in the industry (and really, still is except for the Model S). But I had no illusions about the hardware dependencies that exist; I was pleased to hear rumors that there were appropriate harnesses and such for the easy addition of sensors to do parking sensors and adaptive cruise control and such, and slightly deflated when I found out that a good chunk was untrue.
In the big scheme of things, this issue really doesn't sour me. I'm happy that new cars are able to charge with 33% more current at the beginning of the cycle, and that they can charge faster. I'm happy that new purchasers are able to get that performance, and that my Model X will have that - or better.
Would I be enthusiastic if Tesla replaced my battery pack gratis? Absolutely!
Would I pay even a modest fee for Tesla to give me the capability? No. I don't need it. I have 4 kids and they spend more time screwing around than it would take under the 90 kW taper.
I'm not downplaying hte needs of anyone else here, especially those who regularly travel long distances and would need to use the Superchargers more than I do... that's just their situation, and this is mine. The extra 10-15 minutes every 3 hours or so gives me time to enjoy life just a bit more, or maybe talk with others.
Overall, Tesla has been incredibly supportive of me... we struggled through the alignment issues that generated the 21" tire chomping problem, and Tesla made things right. I've had a couple of small things here/there that have popped up. Just yesterday, I received a call that my 12V battery was below thresholds and needed replacing; they called me - not the other way around, came out and replaced it -- what other car company or dealership does that?! I have the most "likes" to my Facebook post detailing my experience with the 12V replacement than I have gotten on any other post in a few months!
That's not to say that the perspectives of others are wrong; a business traveler who uses Superchargers regularly is going to grow frustrated losing a half an hour on the longer days if she must do it 200 times a year.
My opinion, worth less than $0.02...
- - - Updated - - -
Because I mostly work out of my home, my car does sit, charged, plugged in for extended periods of time. 258 seems to be my maximum after 17,000 miles. If there are tips on "rebalancing" differently, let me know.
Then I thought I might weigh in with my thoughts -- from just another chicken in the roost.
When I signed up to purchase a Model S, I figured on a great amount of flexibility. The ability to update the car's software and add features remotely was incredible and was unprecedented in the industry (and really, still is except for the Model S). But I had no illusions about the hardware dependencies that exist; I was pleased to hear rumors that there were appropriate harnesses and such for the easy addition of sensors to do parking sensors and adaptive cruise control and such, and slightly deflated when I found out that a good chunk was untrue.
In the big scheme of things, this issue really doesn't sour me. I'm happy that new cars are able to charge with 33% more current at the beginning of the cycle, and that they can charge faster. I'm happy that new purchasers are able to get that performance, and that my Model X will have that - or better.
Would I be enthusiastic if Tesla replaced my battery pack gratis? Absolutely!
Would I pay even a modest fee for Tesla to give me the capability? No. I don't need it. I have 4 kids and they spend more time screwing around than it would take under the 90 kW taper.
I'm not downplaying hte needs of anyone else here, especially those who regularly travel long distances and would need to use the Superchargers more than I do... that's just their situation, and this is mine. The extra 10-15 minutes every 3 hours or so gives me time to enjoy life just a bit more, or maybe talk with others.
Overall, Tesla has been incredibly supportive of me... we struggled through the alignment issues that generated the 21" tire chomping problem, and Tesla made things right. I've had a couple of small things here/there that have popped up. Just yesterday, I received a call that my 12V battery was below thresholds and needed replacing; they called me - not the other way around, came out and replaced it -- what other car company or dealership does that?! I have the most "likes" to my Facebook post detailing my experience with the 12V replacement than I have gotten on any other post in a few months!
That's not to say that the perspectives of others are wrong; a business traveler who uses Superchargers regularly is going to grow frustrated losing a half an hour on the longer days if she must do it 200 times a year.
My opinion, worth less than $0.02...
- - - Updated - - -
Because I mostly work out of my home, my car does sit, charged, plugged in for extended periods of time. 258 seems to be my maximum after 17,000 miles. If there are tips on "rebalancing" differently, let me know.
Oh, I didn't realize that all 60s had the "A" battery designation. Have there been any 60s that are limited to 90 kW or can they all charge >90 kW?
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
dennis
Model S Plaid
Yup; finally got to look at my pack's label. I was able to do 105 kW too at Tejon and Gilroy recently:
IIFC, the 60 battery pack has a different part #, so it is the "A" version of that part number. However, it is most likely to have the same composition as the 85kWh "B" batteries and is able to charge to 105kwh, which someone upthread pointed out equals 350/400*120 (the 60 battery is 350V, the 85 is 400V).
Similar threads
