TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Only 265 mile range on 85 kWh battery?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by bbmertz, May 15, 2012.

  1. bbmertz

    bbmertz Model S: P4909

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Anyone else concerned about this article indicating that the 85 kWh battery was recently rated by the EPA as only having a range of 265 miles, which is 12% lower than advertised? The other two batteries have not yet been rated, but I wonder if this means the 60 kWh battery is likely to be closer to 200 rather than 230 miles. The good news is that Tesla confirmed the first vehicles will be delivered in June.

    Tesla will sell swoopy Model S electric sedan sooner
     
  2. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    4,279
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
  3. Discoducky

    Discoducky Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,884
    Location:
    Seattle
    I'd have to say that I'm concerned for the backlash to TM from Fox news and the like, but I'm not personally concerned.

    We monitor our driving and it's easy to see that for urban driving (99% of our total mileage) averages under 40MPH so we'll be hitting well over 300Miles/charge.

    For the few days out of the year that we average +60MPH on a single charge we'll plan accordingly. But we already have a network of chargers in the Pacific NW to rely on.
     
  4. rabar10

    rabar10 FFE until Model 3

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,333
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    The 'well over 300Miles/charge' may be overly optimistic. You can't necessarily use an average MPH to figure average energy usage, since aero losses go up with the square of speed. Spending 50% of your time going 60 and 50% of your time going 20 will average out to 40mph, but the overall energy usage will be quite a bit higher than usage at a constant 40mph.

    Also, while urban driving is much nicer on EVs than ICEs (regenerative braking, better efficiency across the torque curve, etc.) lots of stops/starts will still push the overall efficiency down from where the average MPH figure shows. Then there are other factors like hills, wind, climate control, etc. etc.

    But you did say >300mi, not 385mi (which is what TM's chart shows at a steady 40mph, no wind, no starts/stops, no AC/heat), so you may be taking all of this into account already. Like everything else, 'it depends'. :smile: And regardless of exact mileage achieved, the 85kWh pack will be comfortably overkill for 99% urban driving :biggrin:
     
  5. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    11,923
    Like someone else said, we expected a hit on the new EPA cycle, and were prepared for a 30% loss (210 miles). Even with them getting 320 ideal miles, that 70% hit would have brought us down t0 224 miles, so getting 265 (88% of original stated range and ~83% of new stated range) is actually positive news. I'm more concerned of how the uninformed my blow this non-issue out of proportion in a negative light.
     
  6. richkae

    richkae VIN587

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,917
    A normal person ( who isn't paid to drive around ) will not be able to use up an 85kWh battery with city driving.
    City driving ( on roads with 30mph to 45mph speed limits ) averages between 20 and 30 miles per hour due to traffic and stoplights.
    My commute to work that has 60% of the miles on a divided 6 lane highway with a 60mph speed limit only averages 25-30 mph because of traffic.
    You run out of time in the day - it will take you over 10 hours of constant driving around to get near using up your battery.

    Venture out on the highway for extended periods where you can get up to 60mph+ and stay there and it is a totally different story.
     
  7. markb1

    markb1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,318
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    The article is in error, or at least very misleading, because Tesla didn't advertise that the car would get 300 miles by the EPA standard. They said it would get 300 miles at 55 MPH. Now they're saying it will get more than that at 55 MPH.
     
  8. richkae

    richkae VIN587

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,917
    The new EPA rating is the result of combining 5 tests - I want the results and paramaters of each test.
     
  9. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    7,057
    All the parameters of the five tests are here:
    http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/testing/dynamometer.htm

    Here's my explanation of the difference between 2-cycle and 5-cycle testing:
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8252-EPA-range/page2?p=131625&viewfull=1#post131625

    If you want actual results though, and Tesla has already submitted it to the EPA, you can get that information from the EPA using an FOIA request (someone did that for the Leaf).
     
  10. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    In general I found the article quite OK, but it has some twists. In the initial paragraph says "up to 265 miles" as if that was the upper limit. Technically, someone who already knows the details, can see this relating to the smaller pack options, but that's not exactly what it sounds like. ( Aside from not mentioning that Tesla actually achieved a better 2-cycle value, 320 miles, than they originally designed for).

    The title of this thread is also a bit ambiguous in that the ratio 265 / 85 is actually better than the Leaf's 73 / 24 or the Volt's 35 /16, in spite of the Model S having more space (and being sportier) than those.
     
  11. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,351
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    The Leaf got 73 miles on the EPA 5-cycle test? And the Volt got 35?
     
  12. mcornwell

    mcornwell Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,016
    Location:
    USA
    I'm able to get about 50 miles on my wife's new Volt, and others have reported getting in the high 50's, so if the Telsa is similar, drivers who want to stretch the range from the 5-cycle # should have no problem going over 300 miles on a charge...
     
  13. Right_Said_Fred

    Right_Said_Fred Model S - Sig. 283 EU

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,283
    Location:
    Gorinchem, Netherlands
    My Karma actually gets better mileage in a traffic jam on the highway, with many stop and go's, than when I do the same stretch at 70 mph (I keep tabs on that as I drive the same stretch every day). I expect my Model S to do the same, although maybe it will suffer less from drag at high speed as it has better aerodynamics and is lighter.
     
  14. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    7,057
    Neither the Leaf nor the Volt ever got 5-cycle testing done. Their numbers were 2-cycle numbers adjusted to a 5-cycle equivalent by multiplying by 70% (76% for the Volt).

    Again I explain the multiplier in this post:
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8252-EPA-range/page2?p=131625&viewfull=1#post131625

    The actual formula the EPA uses is actually more complicated, but 70% is a good approximation.

    If you want the details about it, you can find it in the "2008 and Later, Derived 5-Cycle Calculation" in the page below:
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vo6lqLTC-mkJ:allaboutfueleconomy.com/EPA/EPA_Info.aspx+epa+cycle+derived+formula&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Starting in 2012 (which includes the Model S), using a derived 2-cycle number is no longer an option. That means Tesla has no choice but to run the actual 5-cycle tests.
    http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates-measuring-fuel-economy-page-2
     
  15. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Schaumburg, IL
    Ok, here's the dumb question of the week.

    Years ago, with my GAS car (yuch!), I literally filled up a 5 gallon container with gas and drove the car down to see where the real empty mark was on the needle.

    Then put 5 in the tank and resumed.

    With a Volt or Karma I can see how you can pinpoint the same "threshold" as you flip over to gas, again.

    But how with a Leaf or Tesla do you do that? Are these all guesses? Or do you have a genny in the back?

    :)
     
  16. rabar10

    rabar10 FFE until Model 3

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,333
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    That's not a surprise. It's nearly always the case for electric-powertrain vehicles that a lower average speed will lower the overall consumption and so improve the 'mileage'.

    But if you average 20mph for an hour through congested traffic on a freeway, that will use more energy than cruising (crawling?) at a steady 20mph for an hour.
     
  17. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,266
    That reminds me, I've had a couple people ask "What if you get stuck in traffic, won't you get stranded?" Gas has the same issue, but the unvoiced assumption being you can pull off and tank up if you get low.

    To which I reply that unlike a gas engine and an electric car doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving. They blink a couple times as their mental gears absorb that.
     
  18. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    11,923
    Yeah, I got stuck on I78 for an hour to so back in April (on our way back from the NY auto show actually) and my passenger made some mention about how we would've drained the battery by now. Took him a moment as the "duh" sank in when I explained there's no significant "fuel being burned" sitting still.
     
  19. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    7,057
    You can have a meter you either directly connect to the battery to measure capacity or you connect via the obdII to get the car's report of capacity.

    But the actual EPA test procedure is to drive it until it can no longer keep up with the cycle (can't travel at the speeds the cycle requires). Then they recharge it using an AC source and measure how much electricity was consumed.

    You can see the details about EV and PHEV testing procedure here:
    http://www.smidgeindustriesltd.com/leaf/EPA/EPA_test_procedure_for_EVs-PHEVs-1-13-2011.pdf
     
  20. SoCalGuy

    SoCalGuy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    253
    Location:
    LA/NYC
    Not totally true... we do have the AC/heater and radio on... as well as the dash display and infotainment unit...which draw power, albeit small compared to the power consumed by the drivetrain while in motion...
     

Share This Page