Ontario EV incentives upped to $14K... and decreased to $3k for Tesla

[Destiny1701]

Spoke to a rep at Tesla corporate and in the North Eastern division responsible for management and relations with govnt subsidy programs and they are currently working on a solution for those who ordered a MS based on 8.5k and have not yet taken delivery. They cannot make any official statements as yet but word is that they are aggressively figuring out a partial or whole solution to mediate this in the short term. However keeping in mind that the new rates are a huge positive for the model 3 and will likely result in a much larger number of deposits immediately come March 31st. What this means is that Tesla cannot push too hard as they are also likely to benefit strongly from the lower prices EV subsidy. I've also been able to confirm that Tesla had no priorknowledge of this change in advance and was not included in any negotiations with respect to the cut off of 75k. In fact Tesla is taking the stance that the govnt was effectively lobbied to specifically pick a $ amount for the capped 3k which would be just under the base price of a 70D. Thereby ensuring no Teslas today would qualify for anything beyond 3k while 'other' manufacturers receive the immediate advantages of 14.5k.

Ill hopefully have more info over the coming days.

Tesla should have known -> really, "Tesla should have been told", more likely. I didn't see a single Tesla in the photos of the unveiling, and Model S is ignored in the press release. They talk about cars having 100-160km range. No mention of the 460km range car, no photos of Tesla.

I am glad somebody mentioned they've been told Tesla is looking into this. At the very least, they need to find out what's going on and change the web site, because they still subtract $8500 in the design studio. Or somebody will order a car tomorrow, and then be mad at Tesla for deceiving them.

 

[juschilin]

Spoke to a rep at Tesla corporate and in the North Eastern division responsible for management and relations with govnt subsidy programs and they are currently working on a solution for those who ordered a MS based on 8.5k and have not yet taken delivery. They cannot make any official statements as yet but word is that they are aggressively figuring out a partial or whole solution to mediate this in the short term. However keeping in mind that the new rates are a huge positive for the model 3 and will likely result in a much larger number of deposits immediately come March 31st. What this means is that Tesla cannot push too hard as they are also likely to benefit strongly from the lower prices EV subsidy. I've also been able to confirm that Tesla had no priorknowledge of this change in advance and was not included in any negotiations with respect to the cut off of 75k. In fact Tesla is taking the stance that the govnt was effectively lobbied to specifically pick a $ amount for the capped 3k which would be just under the base price of a 70D. Thereby ensuring no Teslas today would qualify for anything beyond 3k while 'other' manufacturers receive the immediate advantages of 14.5k.

Ill hopefully have more info over the coming days.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[mknox]

There were some posts about GM possibly having some lobbying success here.

Good grief people! This has nothing to do with GM or any other automaker. I have worked with Ministry staff in Ontario on EV working groups and such and can tell you that while the decision was likely "political", it had nothing to do with automaker lobbying. If anything, it has to do with a left-wing government not wanting to be perceived as treating the "rich" better than they do the "poor".

 

[green1]

Good grief people! This has nothing to do with GM or any other automaker. I have worked with Ministry staff in Ontario on EV working groups and such and can tell you that while the decision was likely "political", it had nothing to do with automaker lobbying. If anything, it has to do with a left-wing government not wanting to be perceived as treating the "rich" better than they do the "poor".

If you think it's about "left" vs "right" maybe you'd be more open to it being UAW instead of GM?

There were consultations, but Tesla wasn't invited, the cutoff magically happens just under the cheapest Tesla, I can almost guarantee this was other automakers trying to stick it to Tesla.

 

[Destiny1701]

- - - Updated - - -

Because automaker lobbying doesn't exist....right.
And GM reps just happened to be standing next to the premier during the announcement but had absolutely no influence at the office level. Fascinating to say the least.

Agreed on left wing agenda. Don't agree with arbitrarily coming up with 75k literally 5k under Teslas 70D December price. Too convenient. In the end, it's a political move with possibly (and I say possibly not verified) some external influence in determining rates. Wouldn't be the first govnt making decisions in tangent with corporate agendas.

oh well! It is what it is I'll report back when I meet more from Tesla..

Good grief people! This has nothing to do with GM or any other automaker. I have worked with Ministry staff in Ontario on EV working groups and such and can tell you that while the decision was likely "political", it had nothing to do with automaker lobbying. If anything, it has to do with a left-wing government not wanting to be perceived as treating the "rich" better than they do the "poor".

 

[mknox]

If you think it's about "left" vs "right" maybe you'd be more open to it being UAW instead of GM?

There were consultations, but Tesla wasn't invited, the cutoff magically happens just under the cheapest Tesla, I can almost guarantee this was other automakers trying to stick it to Tesla.

I have been involved with government EV working groups for some years now including some discussions around this and other issues. The Ministry staffers rely on these working groups to help form policy decisions to some degree, but the final say will come from the Minister. I am not going to say more for fear of divulging something I shouldn't other than to say it is my belief that there was no "back-door" negotiating involved in this decision.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

- - - Updated - - -

Because automaker lobbying doesn't exist....right.
And GM reps just happened to be standing next to the premier during the announcement but had absolutely no influence at the office level. Fascinating to say the least.

Brad Duguid in there tight as well. Have a look at his Twitter feed over the past few months, he and Ray Tanguay have been busy with the big boys.

Brad Duguid on Twitter:

Re: GM/big auto influence on our government-it's rather significant:

Canadian taxpayers lose $3.5-billion on 2009 bailout of auto firms - The Globe and Mail

As if that's not enough-we're paying for their charging infrastructure! (Duguid present for this announcement as well):

Ontario to invest $20 million in stations to charge up electric cars

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Brad Duguid in there tight as well. Have a look at his Twitter feed over the past few months, he and Ray Tanguay have been busy with the big boys.

What I don't understand is why he is not busy with Tesla. Elon said he would look at manufacturing in Ontario when Model3 launches-if the CAD $ is right. Check and check!

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/business/2009/10/12/tesla_ceo_following_in_henry_fords_tracks.html

Especially when this is our current situation:

Is Ontario destined to become a relic of the auto industry?

 

[Canuck]

Given the excessive amount of taxation high income earners get stuck with in Canada this is a stab in the back, especially because it is being done to their EV purchase. I understand (but don't like) raising taxes on dividends, closing loop holes that allowed for family trusts, etc. Those bring in a significant amount of revenue and perhaps allow for wealthier Canadians to pay less (proportionally) than lower income people. But not allowing the same rebate on an EV purchase is petty and reeks of class warfare.

The harder you work, the more you're punished and this is a classic example of punishment as opposed to fairness.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I know exactly why they put that in there, GM asked for it. They don't want it going to the model S or X, they want the money going to the bolt. as for the 150 top end, I bet if you read further it's probably zero for vehicles over 150

This remains the biggest obstacle to widespread EV adoption...$8,500 didn't fix it and I suspect $14,000 won't either-let's see how GM handles the Bolt.

New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

Our government (all governments who are committed to COP21) should be supporting Tesla's mission "to accelerate the transition towards sustainable transport" . The best way to do that is to actually support Tesla!

 

[Jaff]

Given the excessive amount of taxation high income earners get stuck with in Canada this is a stab in the back, especially because it is being done to their EV purchase. I understand (but don't like) raising taxes on dividends, closing loop holes that allowed for family trusts, etc. Those bring in a significant amount of revenue and perhaps allow for wealthier Canadians to pay less (proportionally) than lower income people. But not allowing the same rebate on an EV purchase is petty and reeks of class warfare.

The harder you work, the more you're punished and this is a classic example of punishment as opposed to fairness.[/QUOTE]


This ^^^^^

 

[beeeerock]

OK, what am I missing here... if this is a lump sum rebate in the full amount of $14,500 for vehicles priced at less than $75,000 (which is how I read it), the effective percentage of refund compared to purchase price gets lower as the car gets pricier. So what is the point of dropping the rebate so substantially above the $75k price point? It's not as if they are rebating a percentage of the purchase price - that would clearly be of bigger benefit to those making expensive purchases.

How is it seen to be giving the rich a bigger benefit? In BC, the sales tax jumps quickly to nail those buying expensive cars - presumably something similar in Ontario as well? The trigger point sure looks suspiciously like it was planned to impact a certain manufacturer, rather than a particular demographic...! If the rebate is supposed to encourage the adoption of EV's, it shouldn't pick and choose.

Remember the whole fiasco over 'universality' a few years ago...??

 

[green1]

This remains the biggest obstacle to widespread EV adoption...$8,500 didn't fix it and I suspect $14,000 won't either-let's see how GM handles the Bolt.

New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

I actually believe that there are better places to spend the incentive than on individual purchasers, personally I'd use it to fund infrastructure instead, I bet the same dollar value could generate a lot of high power charging stations at highway rest stops if they put their mind to it, and I bet that would be more likely to encourage adoption than an incentive, but really, anything is a step the right direction, and I'm jealous of provinces that are doing SOMETHING

 

[juschilin]

Looks like Tesla is working with Government

Spoke to a rep at Tesla corporate and in the North Eastern division responsible for management and relations with govnt subsidy programs and they are currently working on a solution for those who ordered a MS based on 8.5k and have not yet taken delivery. They cannot make any official statements as yet but word is that they are aggressively figuring out a partial or whole solution to mediate this in the short term. However keeping in mind that the new rates are a huge positive for the model 3 and will likely result in a much larger number of deposits immediately come March 31st. What this means is that Tesla cannot push too hard as they are also likely to benefit strongly from the lower prices EV subsidy. I've also been able to confirm that Tesla had no priorknowledge of this change in advance and was not included in any negotiations with respect to the cut off of 75k. In fact Tesla is taking the stance that the govnt was effectively lobbied to specifically pick a $ amount for the capped 3k which would be just under the base price of a 70D. Thereby ensuring no Teslas today would qualify for anything beyond 3k while 'other' manufacturers receive the immediate advantages of 14.5k.

Ill hopefully have more info over the coming days.

I spoke to my delivery contact at Tesla and it looks like Tesla is working with our government to better understand what happens to those of us who have already purchased a vehicle and waiting on delivery. The conversation sounded encouraging and he'll phone me back once he has confirmation on the direction. I think we'll probably see a situation where those in the pipeline get the $8,500 rebate.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I actually believe that there are better places to spend the incentive than on individual purchasers, personally I'd use it to fund infrastructure instead, I bet the same dollar value could generate a lot of high power charging stations at highway rest stops if they put their mind to it, and I bet that would be more likely to encourage adoption than an incentive, but really, anything is a step the right direction, and I'm jealous of provinces that are doing SOMETHING

Norway is best practice for EV adoption globally-incentives work: New york times-ev incentives

 

[Destiny1701]

Yep. Just got off the phone with mine and update is 'unofficially' it's looking like some cut off dates are being negotiated and will be made official shortly. Ie. All cars delivered by for example March 31st will qualify for original 8.5k to allow for a phasing out period.
Stay tuned...

I spoke to my delivery contact at Tesla and it looks like Tesla is working with our government to better understand what happens to those of us who have already purchased a vehicle and waiting on delivery. The conversation sounded encouraging and he'll phone me back once he has confirmation on the direction. I think we'll probably see a situation where those in the pipeline get the $8,500 rebate.

 

[green1]

Norway is best practice for EV adoption globally-incentives work: New york times-ev incentives

I'm not arguing that incentives work, Norway has had huge success through incentives, but that doesn't mean it's the most effective bang for the buck to encourage addoption. For example Norway hasn't limited themselves to EV rebates, they also do things about parking and traffic that help a lot too.
California probably drives more people to EVs with their HOV exemption than the monetary incentives. I honestly believe that more people are worried about finding a place to charge on the road, fast, then are worried about a few thousand for an incentive.
I'd love the government to do both, but whatever gives the most bang for the buck is where they should prioritize.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I'm not arguing that incentives work, Norway has had huge success through incentives, but that doesn't mean it's the most effective bang for the buck to encourage addoption. For example Norway hasn't limited themselves to EV rebates, they also do things about parking and traffic that help a lot too.
California probably drives more people to EVs with their HOV exemption than the monetary incentives. I honestly believe that more people are worried about finding a place to charge on the road, fast, then are worried about a few thousand for an incentive.
I'd love the government to do both, but whatever gives the most bang for the buck is where they should prioritize.

This is what I'm referring to:

http://evroadmapconference.com/program/presentations15/OlaElvestuen.pdf

We agree.

Norway does not penalize Tesla. Why do we in Ontario? The answer is obvious to me...

 

[Canuck]

...I'm jealous of provinces that are doing SOMETHING

Alberta: $100k Tesla = $100k x 5%GST = $105k

BC: $100k Tesla = $100k plus 5%GST plus PST goes from 7% to 10% on $100k vehicle (the 3% so-called "luxury tax") = $115k less $5k rebate = $110k

No need to be jealous of us paying $5k more for the same vehicle in BC.

 

[Local host]

Given the excessive amount of taxation high income earners get stuck with in Canada this is a stab in the back, especially because it is being done to their EV purchase. I understand (but don't like) raising taxes on dividends, closing loop holes that allowed for family trusts, etc. Those bring in a significant amount of revenue and perhaps allow for wealthier Canadians to pay less (proportionally) than lower income people. But not allowing the same rebate on an EV purchase is petty and reeks of class warfare.

The harder you work, the more you're punished and this is a classic example of punishment as opposed to fairness.[/QUOTE]


This ^^^^^

Having lived overseas, I am always telling my wife how hard it is to get ahead here. You can live a good life, but you won't be rich (monetarily...).