Ontario EV incentives upped to $14K... and decreased to $3k for Tesla

[beeeerock]

For our friends in BC:

Please Advise! Climate Leadership from the Fraser Institute? | The Tyee

Interesting. I missed this somehow. The source tends to be a little extreme at times, but where there's smoke...

 

[Jgdixon]

I just read the Ontario policy today in detail, and it's very clear that the MSRP is EXCLUSIVE of options, so all Tesla needs to do in Canada is to create a different way of pricing the cars.

Here's a quote from the actual program documentation: "MSRP is the base value of each model and trim level exclusive of options, taxes, PDI and freight."

So why not make a Model S that comes standard with RWD, 70 kWh battery, and strip out a HUGE number of features so that nobody would ever buy this car. Ever.

Then add back all of the options that currently come standard along with supercharging and make the price equivalent to whatever it is today. In a sense, in Canada, just don't call the cars 90D or whatever. Call them all Model S. They can still be branded the same on the trunk, but just don't brand them as different versions of the car on the website. Market OPTIONS, not different models. Same cars, same prices, just repackage the offer so the MSRP of the base car is less than $75k. That would meet the rules as outlined by the Ontario government.

Awesome idea! I'm going to forward this to some of my contacts at Tesla if that's OK with you.

 

[SageBrush]

Also, those that purchased an EV below $75,000 this year must be very happy with the retroactive incentive! It goes both ways.

Now that is interesting, and it puts the decision in a slightly better (but still lousy) light.

I'm thinking of the people who ordered sub $75k cars in the past few months but have yet to take delivery. If their rebates were not retroactive they would tend to feel quite unhappy at missing out on the rebate by days, and perhaps decide to cancel their order and then reorder. Seems reasonable for the gov to act to prevent that occurrence.

And for the people who reserved a $75k+ car but have yet to take delivery, they have the option to cancel the reservation and choose a higher rebate car. The people being treated unfairly are those who have already paid and were promised a rebate that is now being taken away.

All the best to those affected!

 

[SageBrush]

I tend to look at hybrids as just 'light cigarettes' as opposed to regulars (standard ICE). It's still smoking and still unsafe for health. Polluting is polluting no matter the amount!

We we have a hybrid Highlander and I used to feel good about polluting less (6.7/7.3l/100) for a 7 passenger hauler...and then realized it's laughable at patting myself on the back for smoking 'light' rather than quitting!

I also realize that there is an environmental cost to producing LIon batteries as well damage upon disposal so EV tech is not all that perfect yet either but another step in the evolution of greener sustainable energy!

hmmm...

Aren't you saying then that all solutions are shades of grey ?
That is certainly my opinion, and why I take the overall impact into account when I ask myself how smart a gov action might be. As an example, say Prius lowered CO2 emissions by 33% while an EV lowers them by 100% in Canada (I'm trying to err on the side of EVs to avoid nitpicking.) Then from my perspective, if a subsidy is expected to lead to more than 3x uptake of Prius over EVs it is sound policy to favor the Prius.

I am not an economist but I think of this as 'green ROI.' Incidentally, it is also why I back green infrastructure investment by the public tax a lot more than subsidy of consumer products.

---
But the above is all rubbish. Given the current state of fossil fuel externalities and subsidies, any and all subsidies to green advances are a pittance and are welcome. It is a sad state of affairs that we are forced to argue over the merits of who gets the droppings.

 

[Chrisizzle]

Here's a quote from the actual program documentation: "MSRP is the base value of each model and trim level exclusive of options, taxes, PDI and freight."

So why not make a Model S that comes standard with RWD, 70 kWh battery, and strip out a HUGE number of features so that nobody would ever buy this car. Ever.

This wouldn't work for a number of reasons.

I have a number of friends desperate to get into a Tesla with price being the only problem. What you think 'nobody would ever buy' would be bought even more. Then Tesla has to build them. Well, Tesla is already limiting choice to streamline the manufacture process. Making a sub-par version of the car at a financial loss would only lead to a public relations disaster.

 

[SmartElectric]

So why not make a Model S that comes standard with RWD, 70 kWh battery, and strip out a HUGE number of features so that nobody would ever buy this car. ...repackage the offer so the MSRP of the base car is less than $75k. That would meet the rules as outlined by the Ontario government.

I thought the same way last week and did some math:

Current new price of 70 RWD with standard (cannot remove) options = $95K CDN

Proposed Ontario Rebate "Special" Model S at $74000 MSRP CDN:

1. Basic warranty 4 years 100,000 km for battery/drivetrain
2. 120V/12A charging from 0 - 50%, and 120V/4A charging from 50-100%
3. No internet, navigation, personal settings, camera/sensors safety features.

Potential "options" for the "striper" car which can be unlocked at any time post-purchase:

1. Charging upgrade to 10KW charging (no restrictions, single charger) $7000
2. Extended warranty 8 years unlimited km $7000
3. 4g internet and bluetooth $5000 (enables options below)
   1. Parking sensors, safety radar and rear view camera $200
   2. Internet Audio $200
   3. Personal profiles (seats, settings) $200
   4. Navigation $500
   5. Supercharging $2500

Wait time for production/delivery is based on buying "Tesla upgrade credits" on their store prior to delivery, you pre-pay for upgrade credits and this prioritized delivery.

The minimum striper has 10 month delivery window, purchasing $10K in credits reduces that to 8 months, $20K in credits down to 4 months, and $30K or more credits is down to a 3 month wait, and $40K or more credits (gets you into a 90D and beyond) is less than 3 months,

 

[SageBrush]

^^ I appreciate the creative accounting but I'm not convinced that the warranty can be moved to the optional category since the buyer does not actually lose much by not purchasing; after all, the car is the same as those in the lower 48 that has been engineered to last just as long and the warranty costs were built-in to the msrp.

I'm sorry .. that is not very clear.

 

[sitter_k]

This wouldn't work for a number of reasons.

I have a number of friends desperate to get into a Tesla with price being the only problem. What you think 'nobody would ever buy' would be bought even more. Then Tesla has to build them. Well, Tesla is already limiting choice to streamline the manufacture process. Making a sub-par version of the car at a financial loss would only lead to a public relations disaster.

Not if it's only in one state, and if it's only in one province it gets even less play in terms of bad pr.

I just read the Ontario policy today in detail, and it's very clear that the MSRP is EXCLUSIVE of options, so all Tesla needs to do in Canada is to create a different way of pricing the cars.

Here's a quote from the actual program documentation: "MSRP is the base value of each model and trim level exclusive of options, taxes, PDI and freight."

So why not make a Model S that comes standard with RWD, 70 kWh battery, and strip out a HUGE number of features so that nobody would ever buy this car. Ever.

Then add back all of the options that currently come standard along with supercharging and make the price equivalent to whatever it is today. In a sense, in Canada, just don't call the cars 90D or whatever. Call them all Model S. They can still be branded the same on the trunk, but just don't brand them as different versions of the car on the website. Market OPTIONS, not different models. Same cars, same prices, just repackage the offer so the MSRP of the base car is less than $75k. That meet the rules as outlined by the Ontario

I just read the Ontario policy today in detail, and it's very clear that the MSRP is EXCLUSIVE of options, so all Tesla needs to do in Canada is to create a different way of pricing the cars.

Here's a quote from the actual program documentation: "MSRP is the base value of each model and trim level exclusive of options, taxes, PDI and freight."

So why not make a Model S that comes standard with RWD, 70 kWh battery, and strip out a HUGE number of features so that nobody would ever buy this car. Ever.

Then add back all of the options that currently come standard along with supercharging and make the price equivalent to whatever it is today. In a sense, in Canada, just don't call the cars 90D or whatever. Call them all Model S. They can still be branded the same on the trunk, but just don't brand them as different versions of the car on the website. Market OPTIONS, not different models. Same cars, same prices, just repackage the offer so the MSRP of the base car is less than $75k. That would meet the rules as outlined by the Ontario government.

I just read the Ontario policy today in detail, and it's very clear that the MSRP is EXCLUSIVE of options, so all Tesla needs to do in Canada is to create a different way of pricing the cars.

Here's a quote from the actual program documentation: "MSRP is the base value of each model and trim level exclusive of options, taxes, PDI and freight."

So why not make a Model S that comes standard with RWD, 70 kWh battery, and strip out a HUGE number of features so that nobody would ever buy this car. Ever.

Then add back all of the options that currently come standard along with supercharging and make the price equivalent to whatever it is today. In a sense, in Canada, just don't call the cars 90D or whatever. Call them all Model S. They can still be branded the same on the trunk, but just don't brand them as different versions of the car on the website. Market OPTIONS, not different models. Same cars, same prices, just repackage the offer so the MSRP of the base car is less than $75k. That would meet the rules as outlined by the Ontario government.

i don't think tesla would want to piss off the ont government with a program like this specific to ont. It could better prepare other jurisdictions for such tactics in the future as well.

 

[claudelaval]

Some may find that politically correct but it would be if the GST would be capped too at 75K...

 

[claudelaval]

Not if it's only in one state, and if it's only in one province it gets even less play in terms of bad pr.


i don't think tesla would want to piss off the ont government with a program like this specific to ont. It could better prepare other jurisdictions for such tactics in the future as well.

Go EV's they say and they already starting to cut the little break we could have. Don't be mistaken not every Tesla owners are millionnaire, I'm not. I'm retired and living on a middle income...That lost would be a difference between having on or staying with an ICE...

 

[sitter_k]

Go EV's they say and they already starting to cut the little break we could have. Don't be mistaken not every Tesla owners are millionnaire, I'm not. I'm retired and living on a middle income...That lost would be a difference between having on or staying with an ICE...

Do they really care about the issues or do they care about getting reelected? Capping the rebate at 75k plays to their base. In reality not all Tesla owners are millionaires but perception is they are. They've done their political arithmetic and calculated that striking a blow against the perceived wealthy trumps the environment agenda in this particular instance and while I don't like their tactics at all I can see why they would do it.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Do they really care about the issues or do they care about getting reelected?

Answer:

Ontario Liberals face backlash over fundraising pressure tactics

 

[keithz]

Do they really care about the issues or do they care about getting reelected? Capping the rebate at 75k plays to their base.

It's not like EV owners or more specifically Tesla owners constitute any serious constituency in any single riding, let alone province wide.

And the large numbers who do matter (Model 3) buyers will get the rebate.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

And the large numbers who do matter (Model 3) buyers will get the rebate.

If full rebate is available when Model 3 ships I will be shocked...and I'll have a lot of apologizing to do.

I certainly don't mind apologizing...I'm officially a reservation holder!!

 

[sitter_k]

It's not like EV owners or more specifically Tesla owners constitute any serious constituency in any single riding, let alone province wide.

And the large numbers who do matter (Model 3) buyers will get the rebate.

It's not just ev drivers. Most have already bought their car. It's about being conscious of the environment or the appearance of being conscious of the environment. What the liberals have shown us is they're concerned more about their voter base than the environment when they significantly cut the rebate offered to the best ev in order to play to their base. They say rich Tesla customers don't need a rebate the middle class do, we take care of the middle class. To be fair I bet the PC would have done the same but for different reasons.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Incredible article from Peter Cheney at The Globe :

Will the Tesla Model 3 turn Elon Musk into the next Henry Ford?

 

[SmartElectric]

Incredible article from Peter Cheney at The Globe

The old gas car lover so called industry expert spokesman in the accompanying video spouting negativity just makes me cringe.

I expect the Ontario rebate is around in two years time, my reservation might get me into mid-2018, and my guess is there certainly won't be too many EV's sold in 2016-7 given the poor choice here in Ontario (none of those nice CARB cars), and with legacy manufacturers asking full MSRP in many cases. Tesla is the top selling EV, and it gets the least rebate, so the money might last a while...

 

[hingisfan]

Is there a limit on monies for the revised program? Or number of claims? (for Ontario)

 

[Cebe]

They haven't announced a limit, in time, money or number of cars, but I'm sure they reserve the right to change it at any time. To get the full $14k incentive, something like a Model 3 (large enough battery, five seats) would need to cost you between $46,666 and $75k.

 

[sitter_k]

They haven't announced a limit, in time, money or number of cars, but I'm sure they reserve the right to change it at any time. To get the full $14k incentive, something like a Model 3 (large enough battery, five seats) would need to cost you between $46,666 and $75k.

I have a bad feeling the Ontario government has seen all the Tesla press this past week and is fearing how much they will have to pay in EV credits in 2 to 3 years time and will adjust accordingly.