Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[jkirkwood001]

Those are toys not practical vehicles, if you can’t drive from Toronto to Ottawa on a full charge then you aren’t competing with every ICE vehicle on the market....

You are the exception if you want to drive for 5 hours without a bathroom break or a bite to eat. I would hardly call that "a toy". My ICE (Suzuki SX4) only gets 420 km per tank, and nobody ever called it a toy just because of its gas range.

 

[jkirkwood001]

As I said, on the fence. I know the driving aspect will be excellent. The build quality means that the depreciation will likely be very high (I pretty much will assume the car will probably be close to $0 after 5 yrs)... that means the present value should be much less than they're asking.

What?!? Can you find a 5-year-old Model S for $0? I don't think so. Build quality of first production cars has been addressed.

 

[Abrew2014]

You are the exception if you want to drive for 5 hours without a bathroom break or a bite to eat. I would hardly call that "a toy". My ICE (Suzuki SX4) only gets 420 km per tank, and nobody ever called it a toy just because of its gas range.

The difference is when you stop to refuel your Suzuki it takes 3 minutes to get another 420 km of range, compared to 30+ to get more range for Tesla.

Why haven’t the leaf and volt been wifey adopted, because people don’t feel they’re practical for price. Which is exactly why the Tesla Model 3 is so dangerous because it’s suddenly made a LR car somewhat affordable

 

[adaptabl]

You are the exception if you want to drive for 5 hours without a bathroom break or a bite to eat. I would hardly call that "a toy". My ICE (Suzuki SX4) only gets 420 km per tank, and nobody ever called it a toy just because of its gas range.

But you fill up the SX4 in under 5 minutes anywhere and be ready for another 420KM's. Not too many people need a 50-60minute bathroom break.

 

[Burlburt]

Modestly interesting dialogue in the last few posts but better suited to a different forum

 

[jkirkwood001]

But you fill up the SX4 in under 5 minutes anywhere and be ready for another 420KM's. Not too many people need a 50-60minute bathroom break.

But I never pull off the 401 to ONLY fill up with gas (maybe you do). That's the point. It doesn't take a 60-minute charge to get me the rest of the way to Toronto. Even if I'm just stretching my legs and getting a coffee too, that's sufficient. But maybe 20 minutes delay a couple of times a year is enough reason for you to rule out a Tesla. Not for me. I'm not going to disagree with you, I'm just saying even the SR would be a heck of a lot more than a "toy" to me. It's da bomb, like driving a spaceship - well worth 20 minutes a few times a year (oh, and the 20 minutes would likely stretch to more for all the people coming up to ask me about the Tesla!!)

 

[Samina]

Loll... I agree. Just wondering how long it will take to resolve this issue. I spoke to Tesla rep yesterday and they just hang tight but keep checking in with them.

 

[Samina]

Sorry for the typos!

 

[Velianou]

Mind if I ask what was the narrative you put forward? Im thinking to call as well and I want to make sure I'm on the same page.

thanks,

I told the office of the ombudsman that “I believe I am being segregated from the MTO due to the fact that they have excluded me from the same opportunity as other consumers with regards to the EHVIP. Discrimination is not the right word but exclusion is.

 

[Velianou]

But you fill up the SX4 in under 5 minutes anywhere and be ready for another 420KM's. Not too many people need a 50-60minute bathroom break.

Filling up 40 times a year at 5 minutes. This is almost 3.5 hrs. Charging over night plus a few 20 min stops a year. Please, no debate here. Keep trying Adaptabl.

 

[Samina]

Yes, this is an awesome development. The Canadian Environmental Law Association has filed an application for review.

REASONS FOR REQUESTED REVIEW

The Applicants submit that O.Reg. 386/18 (“the Regulation”) should be immediately reviewed and revoked on the grounds that:

1. The Regulation was not subject to public notice and comment under the EBR and the Minister did not consider the public’s comments prior to its passage, which is in direct contravention of the mandatory duties imposed under Part II of the EBR in
relation to public participation.

2. As a matter of law, the Minister’s decision not to post the Regulation on the Environmental Registry for public comment
cannot be justified under any of the statutory exceptions to public participation under the EBR.

3. The Regulation’s immediate termination of the province’s cap - and - trade program is contrary to the public interest and
may cause or contribute to significant harm to the environment and human health and safety, particularly since the provincial
government has not announced any alternative programs that will be undertaken in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions
and transition Ontario to a resilient low - carbon economy.

I just checked out CELA’s website. Their staff are mostly lawyers and legal representatives. Now to just wait and see what happens.

 

[Ludatik]

I spoke to Tesla rep yesterday and they just hang tight but keep checking in with them.

I don't know what to make of this. Is Tesla actively trying to alter the rules of the EHVIP cancellation? Or are they devising some other scheme as a goodwill gesture for affected orders? I wonder if anything will actually come of this. The more they say “hang tight”, the more they build expectation as it seems like they’re working on something. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[ben1628]

Tesla (TSLA) stock down as top analyst sees Model 3 cancellations increasing, Tesla denies

So he claimed there is a 24% cancellation. I think the figure may be true in Ontario.

Tesla may/want to do something to keep us, I don't mind jumping back in if they provide some kind of incentive.

I know the CEO is reading our forum. Hello there!!!

 

[Samina]

On that note.... Elon if you are reading this ... kick Doug on his butt! (Sorry for being crude but this has been a stressful week with just waiting to see happens).

 

[Abrew2014]

I don't know what to make of this. Is Tesla actively trying to alter the rules of the EHVIP cancellation? Or are they devising some other scheme as a goodwill gesture for affected orders? I wonder if anything will actually come of this. The more they say “hang tight”, the more they build expectation as it seems like they’re working on something. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part.

I agree, the longer they go with no comment the more anger/hope builds with people

 

[oakvillemike]

Tesla (TSLA) stock down as top analyst sees Model 3 cancellations increasing, Tesla denies

So he claimed there is a 24% cancellation. I think the figure may be true in Ontario.

Tesla may/want to do something to keep us, I don't mind jumping back in if they provide some kind of incentive.

I know the CEO is reading our forum. Hello there!!!

That'll be tough.

Tesla had over 7,000 new orders (5,000 Model 3’s and 2,000 S/X) last week, says Elon Musk

 

[Burlburt]

That'll be tough.

Tesla had over 7,000 new orders (5,000 Model 3’s and 2,000 S/X) last week, says Elon Musk

That is because it is a great car. I know I want it but I can no longer afford it since the Rednecks got elected

 

[pcons]

These numbers need further breakdown. I had a fairly good exploration with our local power company in Ontario regarding this. Efficiency is factored in by the power company when they total the net power energy used by adding to it an Adjustment Factor of 1.0421.
Regarding Delivery charge, there is a flat monthly charge of $28.78 every customer pays regardless of usage. The only usage based extra charges are: Distribution @ $0.0060 per kWh; Transmission Network & Connection @ $0.0133; and Market Service @ $0.0039 per kWh. So, the effective rate per kWh using off-peak of 6.5 cents/kWh = $ 0.0650+0.0060+0.0133+0.0039, which equals 8.82 cents per kWh. Grossing it up by the adjustment factor of 1.0421 brings it up to 8.912 cents per kWh. Add the GST taxes (there are no provincial taxes applied at the moment) and the final end-user rate becomes 9.357 cents per kWh, all-inclusive. The cost to fully charge a Tesla Model 3 LR battery would mean multiplying $0.09357/kWh with the actual time to pack in those 75 kilowatts, and the cost to charge a partially depleted battery would similarly be dictated by the SOC "bandwidth" or "window" as it takes less time to charge the battery somewhere between the range of 20-80% than it does to charge the first 20% and the last 20% of battery capacity. So, a potentially $7 "fill-up" to go 500 km in my Model 3, versus my ICE car's $75 fill-up to go a similar distance.

Sorry, but this is still wrong. I've been driving EVs for 5+ years now, and while the savings vs gas are substantial, its nowhere near 10x like you claim...unless you are comparing this to a v12 pickup truck, which is hardly fair. From my experience I would estimate the savings is about 3-5x less than gas (depends heavily on the price of gas at the time as well as time of year and how aggressively you drive). Supporting evidence to this from the Tesla website (click on how they calculate the gas savings over the life of the car...)

Also, when I was talking about the efficiency that is the efficiency of the charger in the car (yes, the thing you plug into the wall is not the charger.....). The charger inside the car is basically an AC/DC converter (batteries store and run DC), and that has a loss associated with it. Thats about 15% (I've measured this from the wall to the car many, many times...not on a Tesla but on a 2014 and 2017 Volt, as well as a 2017 Bolt). Also, depending on the battery temperature, the thermal management system may kick in to cool down/warm up the battery during charging, so 15% is pretty accurate. Has nothing to do with the power company and their transmission efficiency...

Finally, you made another common mistake referring to the battery in the model 3 as having '75 kW'....kW is a measure of work (1 kW = 1,000 Joules/s), kWh is what the battery capacity is measured in because the units of time cancel out and leave units of Joules...which is energy....ie, 1 kWh = 1,000 Joules/s * 3600 s = 3.6 megajoules. Since the units are large, its easier to call it kWh rather than MJ....

It has nothing to do with the SOC or how long it takes to charge, average price of electricity is $0.12 - 0.13 /kWh. If you take 10 kWh from the wall it costs $1.20 regardless of if you take 1 hour or 10 hours to do it, and because of the AC/DC conversion loss in the charger (in the car) you will actually end up with only ~ 8.7 kWh of useable charge in the battery while paying for 10 kWh of useage.

 

[Abrew2014]

Tesla Rep (800 number)told me tonight that change on your account page today means nothing.

He also told me there is nothing Tesla can do about Ontario EVHIP, it’s a government thing out of their control so unless you have car by July 11 you will not receive. Didn’t bother fighting with him, not worth the time

 

[Buggle]

Sorry, but this is still wrong. I've been driving EVs for 5+ years now, and while the savings vs gas are substantial, its nowhere near 10x like you claim...unless you are comparing this to a v12 pickup truck, which is hardly fair. From my experience I would estimate the savings is about 3-5x less than gas (depends heavily on the price of gas at the time as well as time of year and how aggressively you drive). Supporting evidence to this from the Tesla website (click on how they calculate the gas savings over the life of the car...)

View attachment 318590

Also, when I was talking about the efficiency that is the efficiency of the charger in the car (yes, the thing you plug into the wall is not the charger.....). The charger inside the car is basically an AC/DC converter (batteries store and run DC), and that has a loss associated with it. Thats about 15% (I've measured this from the wall to the car many, many times...not on a Tesla but on a 2014 and 2017 Volt, as well as a 2017 Bolt). Also, depending on the battery temperature, the thermal management system may kick in to cool down/warm up the battery during charging, so 15% is pretty accurate. Has nothing to do with the power company and their transmission efficiency...

Finally, you made another common mistake referring to the battery in the model 3 as having '75 kW'....kW is a measure of work, kWh is what the battery capacity is measured in. It has nothing to do with the SOC or how long it takes to charge, average price of electricity is $0.12 - 0.13 /kWh. If you take 10 kWh from the wall it costs $1.20 regardless of if you take 1 hour or 10 hours to do it, and because of the AC/DC conversion loss in the charger (in the car) you will actually end up with only ~ 8.7 kWh of useable charge in the battery while paying for 10 kWh of useage.

Those r all US numbers tho. Dollar amounts higher here due to exchange, and gas way more expensive here.