Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[felixculpas]

One could easily argue that the spirit of the EHVIP program was not bound to individuals or their level of income or anything really at the n=1 level. Public policy must rise above the lowest common denominators and often makes unpopular choices in the interest of the collective good - in this case, the environment...which we seem to be forgetting about. Traditionally we have entrusted governments to do these things however unfortunately we are now into an age of bad actors willing to take advantage of a mis-informed public and herd them to their own interests.

As has been stated numerous times, getting someone out of their over-sized luxury SUV and into a BEV has more impact (approximately TRIPLE) than getting someone out of their reasonably fuel efficient sedan.

Why incentivize people that can't afford to take the incentive in the first place? The EHVIP program worked. GreenON worked. Carbon pricing works. (and BTW is NOT merely a tax on citizens). To bring income levels into the argument is "popularizing" the issue and plays right into Ford's hands. It's no wonder he was elected. All hail Premier Ford!

 

[RAM_Eh]

I agree with you, but I doubt most (Ford) voters would. Most would say - again, not me - "cut my taxes even if it means we don't address global warming". That's why he got elected. Let's not debate IF it's right, it's just where we are democratically this year. We can't debate if Ontarians should vote against the cap and trade and the associated rebate. They just did.

I guess what I'm having a problem with is the expectation on this forum that if the general public knew about our issue, they'd feel outraged. I don't believe most would. Would I like us to eventually outlaw ICEs and redirect Ontario towards a progressive and environmentally-sound economic policy? Absolutely. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about if the Ontario government should reverse a policy that they just implemented so that Tesla buyers - ~60% of whom will reduce their carbon footprint regardless - to be paid tax dollars for their purchase.

If the cap and trade program is instituted on the federal level why is there no federal incentive? The Ford government was elected with a very clear mandate and that was to cut excessive spending provincially . We can't be that naïve that we thought this program would survive can we?

I personally have taken advantage of the EV rebate twice, its there and it helped in my purchase. Would I have bought my original car if it was not there? Yes but not as much car. I even took advantage of the Solar incentive at $ 0.82 per KWH why cause it made financial sense. My first purchase of and EV qualified for the $ 8500.00 rebate and I thought at the time that was a lot and although welcomed it believed and still believe it was excessive. The 14K on the model 3 I just bought...very much the same belief.

I believe the role of government is to steer the public and economy in the right direction for the greater good. Rebates should be in effect in my opinion juts not cash in hand like it has been. Give us credit in something else, like free licensing for a period or no PST portion on the electricity we use to charge the EV's.

If you are up in arms against the provincial government cancelling the rebate why are you not contacting the federal government for not having a program?

 

[haromaem]

We would have never looked into buying a Tesla if there was no incentive. The rebate is what drew us to look at getting one now rather than later. Can we afford it? Not really. We are in the $100k range family income, but have some savings and will use the home line of credit for the remainder until we are able to get money from an investment that is maturing late this summer. Maybe we are more poor than middle income and some think we are dumb for making this move. But we have factored in gas and HOV lanes convenience as hubby travels approx 200 kms a day. So waiting for the SR model won't work for us as it would be charging all the time. We are still on the fence if we want to spend this much money but leaning towards rewarding ourselves as we have been to hell and back with family health issues. We live once and will make it work. We won't be in the dog house financially as we have back up. But based on our income it's an insane amount of money... But probably worth every penny. But yes we are scared, but also excited

 

[jkirkwood001]

One could easily argue that the spirit of the EHVIP program was not bound to individuals or their level of income or anything really at the n=1 level. Public policy must rise above the lowest common denominators and often makes unpopular choices in the interest of the collective good - in this case, the environment...which we seem to be forgetting about. Traditionally we have entrusted governments to do these things however unfortunately we are now into an age of bad actors willing to take advantage of a mis-informed public and herd them to their own interests.

As has been stated numerous times, getting someone out of their over-sized luxury SUV and into a BEV has more impact (approximately TRIPLE) than getting someone out of their reasonably fuel efficient sedan.

Why incentivize people that can't afford to take the incentive in the first place? The EHVIP program worked. GreenON worked. Carbon pricing works. (and BTW is NOT merely a tax on citizens). To bring income levels into the argument is "popularizing" the issue and plays right into Ford's hands. It's no wonder he was elected. All hail Premier Ford!

I respect what you're saying, @felixculpas. But I think to not bring income levels into the debate ignores the reason why Ford was elected, and why the EVHIP program was cancelled in the first place. You can't ignore that fact.

I keep saying I'm not against an EV rebate. I'm just saying it's been cancelled because the majority of Ontarians voted for a party that declared they would. To say "we deserve a rebate anyway!!" is -- (put your armour on, JK) -- elitist. We lost this battle folks. Focus on a battle we can win, hopefully a long-term one.

 

[felixculpas]

How carbon pricing helps Canada fight climate change

 

[jkirkwood001]

If the cap and trade program is instituted on the federal level why is there no federal incentive? The Ford government was elected with a very clear mandate and that was to cut excessive spending provincially . We can't be that naïve that we thought this program would survive can we?

I personally have taken advantage of the EV rebate twice, its there and it helped in my purchase. Would I have bought my original car if it was not there? Yes but not as much car. I even took advantage of the Solar incentive at $ 0.82 per KWH why cause it made financial sense. My first purchase of and EV qualified for the $ 8500.00 rebate and I thought at the time that was a lot and although welcomed it believed and still believe it was excessive. The 14K on the model 3 I just bought...very much the same belief.

I believe the role of government is to steer the public and economy in the right direction for the greater good. Rebates should be in effect in my opinion juts not cash in hand like it has been. Give us credit in something else, like free licensing for a period or no PST portion on the electricity we use to charge the EV's.


If you are up in arms against the provincial government cancelling the rebate why are you not contacting the federal government for not having a program?

All good points. And I have two weeks ago (see below - please don't make assumptions). For Ford NOT to cancel EVHIP would have been hypocritical (that's what the majority voted for). For McKenna (really, Trudeau) to NOT incentivize EVs at least as much as the oil industry is hypocritical, and deserves our outrage. I agree.

 

[dusdev]

We would have never looked into buying a Tesla if there was no incentive. The rebate is what drew us to look at getting one now rather than later. Can we afford it? Not really. We are in the $100k range family income, but have some savings and will use the home line of credit for the remainder until we are able to get money from an investment that is maturing late this summer. Maybe we are more poor than middle income and some think we are dumb for making this move. But we have factored in gas and HOV lanes convenience as hubby travels approx 200 kms a day. So waiting for the SR model won't work for us as it would be charging all the time. We are still on the fence if we want to spend this much money but leaning towards rewarding ourselves as we have been to hell and back with family health issues. We live once and will make it work. We won't be in the dog house financially as we have back up. But based on our income it's an insane amount of money... But probably worth every penny. But yes we are scared, but also excited

Personally I'd say if you can't afford the car, don't buy it. You're going to be giddy and happy once you get it, and then reality is going to sink in going out 1-2 years. You'll realize it's 'just a car' and you spent way to much versus an ICE. The problem as I see it, EV cars are just too expensive without the rebate. They will come down in price eventually. Without the rebate, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy one unless you have a lot of disposable income.

 

[M109Rider]

Personally I'd say if you can't afford the car, don't buy it. You're going to be giddy and happy once you get it, and then reality is going to sink in going out 1-2 years. You'll realize it's 'just a car' and you spent way to much versus an ICE. The problem as I see it, EV cars are just too expensive without the rebate. They will come down in price eventually. Without the rebate, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy one unless you have a lot of disposable income.

I agree that obviously if you can’t afford the car don’t buy it.
However, I think EV’s are cheaper than ice cars depending on your situation, and the type of cars your currently drive.

I go through about $6,200 a year in gas at present.
Given my electricity rates off peak hours I would spend about $700 a year for electricity.
It wouldn’t take too many years to see the pay off for my situation.

 

[phigment]

Just a quick note that I too just got a callback form the Ombudsman following up on my submission. I am in a different boat than most of you since I took delivery on May 19th (still waiting on rebate), but am still complaining about how unfarily they are treating the people they reprsent by creating different rules for different purchases based on manufacturer. She said they are aware of the issue and are investigating. There have been a number of complaints, but wasn't able to tell me of the magnitude as she was part of a team and didn't have access to that. No further info, and recommended that I contact [email protected] and contact my local MPP.

 

[Jimmytofu]

You make good points, @dusdev.

re your last item, I'd agree IF those lower income folks were going to buy an ICE, but we don't know that. In fact, our own poll indicated that almost 60% of prospective Tesla buyers did or would likely proceed to buy an EV even after the policy was cancelled. So that supports that the EV rebate was actually paying more people who would buy an EV regardless of incentive, than those who would not without the rebate.

Put another way, you're asking the person making $40,000 / year (many of whom recycle and use public transit etc.) to donate some of their taxes towards people who would buy an EV regardless. You can say that's the exception, but I don't think you can argue that lower income taxpayers should feel sorry for Tesla buyers.

Again, I agree the way the Ford government cancelled the policy and targeted Tesla buyers the most was crummy. But I don't think we can expect people to believe this is a grave injustice.

(Hmm, thought: perhaps a progressive EV tax rebate on our tax returns, just like OAS is clawed back from high income earners...? That would address all our interests and concerns.)

Yes, i'm expecting that a tax rebate will become available. I can't find the article but a couple years ago the auditor Gen. indicated that the EV rebate didn't really make any sense for the provincial government. The AG recommended a tax rebate for those who purchase EVs. This way the cost is split between federal and provincial.

I would expect something like this to be put in place. As I understand it, when the feds introduce the carbon tax in Ontario it will be managed through house hold tax returns.

 

[felixculpas]

TCO Research:

Total cost of ownership and market share for hybrid and electric vehicles in the UK, US and Japan.

"Government support for low-emission vehicles clearly needs to address financial barriers if hybrid and electric vehicle market share is to break out of the niche market. Most importantly, government support needs to be tailored to include an element to account for the greater upfront initial vehicle cost and a subsidy to account for fuel price variation. It is paramount that there is a gradual phase out of incentives once technology has reached cost parity especially when oil prices are low."

Arstechnica.com:
"Generally, economists have agreed that once electric vehicle batteries hit $100/kWh, they'll be cost competitive with ICEs."

Musk has predicted that will happen sometime in 2020. Factoring in Elon Time, let's round up to 2021.

So we have at least 3 years in which rebates remain an important incentive for the adoption of EV's.

 

[felixculpas]

Here's what carbon tax in the N.W.T. will look like.

 

[champion1955]

If the cap and trade program is instituted on the federal level why is there no federal incentive? The Ford government was elected with a very clear mandate and that was to cut excessive spending provincially . We can't be that naïve that we thought this program would survive can we?

I personally have taken advantage of the EV rebate twice, its there and it helped in my purchase. Would I have bought my original car if it was not there? Yes but not as much car. I even took advantage of the Solar incentive at $ 0.82 per KWH why cause it made financial sense. My first purchase of and EV qualified for the $ 8500.00 rebate and I thought at the time that was a lot and although welcomed it believed and still believe it was excessive. The 14K on the model 3 I just bought...very much the same belief.

I believe the role of government is to steer the public and economy in the right direction for the greater good. Rebates should be in effect in my opinion juts not cash in hand like it has been. Give us credit in something else, like free licensing for a period or no PST portion on the electricity we use to charge the EV's.

If you are up in arms against the provincial government cancelling the rebate why are you not contacting the federal government for not having a program?

I thought I would share now that you mention it, I was at a townhall the other day with my Federal MP. The federal carbon tax plan is expected to be implemented later this year. The plan is to use the proceeds from that tax for green initiatives, though he didn't specify what they were. The purpose of the town hall meeting however was to solicit suggestions from the public. So I just wanted to say that now may be a good time to contact your MP to provide suggestions on how the money can effectively be utilised to reduce our carbon footprint. That is, if Ford doesn't somehow throw a wrench into it.

 

[adaptabl]

I thought I would share now that you mention it, I was at a townhall the other day with my Federal MP. The federal carbon tax plan is expected to be implemented later this year. The plan is to use the proceeds from that tax for green initiatives, though he didn't specify what they were. The purpose of the town hall meeting however was to solicit suggestions from the public. So I just wanted to say that now may be a good time to contact your MP to provide suggestions on how the money can effectively be utilised to reduce our carbon footprint. That is, if Ford doesn't somehow throw a wrench into it.

Ford will fight it to the end. The end of the federal Liberal government that is. He only has to stall the process to next summer. The Ontario PC's would love to go into the next federal election with the liberals fighting in court to increase gas taxes in addition to the feds wanting more immigration. The PC will look like the ones fighting for the little guys. What happened in Ontario is spreading.

 

[phigment]

Just a quick note that I too just got a callback form the Ombudsman following up on my submission. I am in a different boat than most of you since I took delivery on May 19th (still waiting on rebate), but am still complaining about how unfarily they are treating the people they reprsent by creating different rules for different purchases based on manufacturer. She said they are aware of the issue and are investigating. There have been a number of complaints, but wasn't able to tell me of the magnitude as she was part of a team and didn't have access to that. No further info, and recommended that I contact [email protected] and contact my local MPP.

@adaptabl why are you disagreeing with my statement that the Ombudsman's office called me back? Do you have info that I am unaware of? Was this in fact somebody impersonating their office?

 

[sitter_k]

Personally I'd say if you can't afford the car, don't buy it. You're going to be giddy and happy once you get it, and then reality is going to sink in going out 1-2 years. You'll realize it's 'just a car' and you spent way to much versus an ICE. The problem as I see it, EV cars are just too expensive without the rebate. They will come down in price eventually. Without the rebate, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy one unless you have a lot of disposable income.

Absolutely, there would be tens of thousands of less EV's on the road without rebates, Tesla might not even have survived without rebates here, the US and in Europe.

Is that statement the case for or against rebates? You decided.

 

[McFlurri]

@adaptabl why are you disagreeing with my statement that the Ombudsman's office called me back? Do you have info that I am unaware of? Was this in fact somebody impersonating their office?

He disagrees with anybody for any reason. He's just a troll.

 

[haromaem]

He disagrees with anybody for any reason. He's just a troll.

Probably picks random posts. I know majority of the thumbs down I receive are from this poster. Not sure what I have done. I'm just here to educate myself and still hoping to get something... And if not it is what it is

 

[adaptabl]

@adaptabl why are you disagreeing with my statement that the Ombudsman's office called me back? Do you have info that I am unaware of? Was this in fact somebody impersonating their office?

I just disagree that some people were treated unfairly. The program cancellation is the same for everyone. If you had ordered thru a dealer you would get the rebate. Because Tesla decided not to do ordering thru dealers their customers do not qualify. If GM had a direct ordering system their customers would also be excluded from the rebates.

 

[sitter_k]

Thank you for your email concerning electric car rebates.

The people of Ontario were very clear when they voted on June 7th. We said we would be cancelling the cap and trade carbon tax program as we committed to during the election. The Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program and the Electric Vehicle Charging Incentive Programs were funded through these proceeds and have now been cancelled.

All vehicles that have been delivered, registered and plated by July 11th will have the incentive honoured, provided the paperwork is submitted within 60 days of registration and plating. A list of eligible vehicles is available at: www.ontario.ca/electricvehicles. As well, dealerships with inventory on site, or ordered by July 11th, and delivered, registered and plated for consumers by September 10th, will have the incentive honoured.

Our approach provides fairness for Ontario taxpayers and dealerships with orders on the way and most of these dealerships generally tend to be small businesses in our communities. Tesla does not operate a small business dealership network.

Sincerely,

Sylvia Jones, MPP

Dufferin-Caledon