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Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

jkirkwood001

Active Member
Supporting Member
Feb 20, 2018
1,178
4,840
Ottawa, ON
With several people having decided what to do finally, our EVHIP poll is out-of-date. The data indicates 55% were still deciding what to do.

It would be informative if those who've acted could go back to the poll and update their choice.

Thanks, and for those who've decided to cancel or postpone, I feel truly sorry your Tesla dream is delayed. Hope a better option that let's you buy a Tesla arrives soon!

PS Summary as of today:

upload_2018-8-2_16-36-0.png
 
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mjavor

Member
Jul 18, 2018
22
64
Toronto
Looks like Ford also cancelled the universal basic income project for low-income people, something he promised he wouldn't do. It made the news and he and still got away with it.
If he got away with that, he's definitely going to get away with the unfair EV program phase out.

The only consolation for people who ordered before July 11th is that your cars arrive after September 10th, because then you wouldn't have gotten the rebate anyways. Fingers crossed for some more manufacturing delays!
 

Abrew2014

Member
Jul 16, 2018
105
143
Toronto
-Emailed an inside sales advisor to cancel, was told that he cancelled it and it would be refunded on my credit card within 3 weeks

-Waited on phone for 90 minutes to confirm, was told it would take 30-60 days and would receive by Cheque

-Spoke to a supervisor, was told that if I clicked “request a refund” on my account (I never had that option) it would’ve been processed within two weeks on credit card, but since I did by phone it would take 30-60 days and be done by Cheque

This is honestly incredible....worst customer service I have ever had (and I’ve flown on Air Canada and had a cell phone for 15 years)
 

Abrew2014

Member
Jul 16, 2018
105
143
Toronto
-Emailed an inside sales advisor to cancel, was told that he cancelled it and it would be refunded on my credit card within 3 weeks

-Waited on phone for 90 minutes to confirm, was told it would take 30-60 days and would receive by Cheque

-Spoke to a supervisor, was told that if I clicked “request a refund” on my account (I never had that option) it would’ve been processed within two weeks on credit card, but since I did by phone it would take 30-60 days and be done by Cheque

This is honestly incredible....worst customer service I have ever had (and I’ve flown on Air Canada and had a cell phone for 15 years)

Now the sales advisor supervisor telling me no it’s 30-60 days but might be lucky and get in 3 weeks.

Oh and the $3200 could be credit card but the $1000 will for sure be cheque
 

Tertulian

Member
Jul 2, 2018
137
210
Toronto
So I finally emailed [email protected] at the suggestion of the Ombudsman. This is what I wrote - feel free to borrow it if you like, though I would recommend tweaking it if you do so.

Good afternoon,

I am writing today to both protest the manner in which the EHVIP program was cancelled, as well express confusion at the singling out of a single manufacturer; Tesla.

On July 11th, the PC government released a press release stating that, effective immediately, the EHVIP program was ending. They also outlined particular rules for the dissolution of the program, which were as follows:

Applications will be accepted from dealerships, car owners or prospective car owners only if one of the following conditions has been met:

  • Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.

  • Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.
We were subsequently informed that, since Tesla consumers order their cars directly, they would have to have the vehicles delivered, plated and registered as of July 11th in order to qualify. Such discrimination amongst consumers due to the way in which they ordered their vehicles is highly unfair.

However, beyond this, consumers who ordered from Tesla DID order their cars through a dealership. Specifically, the Order Agreement (Purchase Agreement) electronically signed by consumers state that:

“You agree to purchase the vehicle (the “Vehicle”) described in your Vehicle Configuration from Tesla Motors Canada ULC or its affiliate (“we,” “us” or “our”), pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Your Vehicle is priced and configured based on features and options available at the time of order and you can confirm availability with your Owner Advisor. Options, features or hardware released after you place your order may not be included in or available for your Vehicle.”

‘Tesla Motors Canada ULC’ is a registered dealer in Ontario, as seen on this screen capture from the OMVIC website:



It would then seem that, according to the cancellation rules outlined by the PC government and the MTO, any orders placed with Tesla would qualify (provided the vehicle in delivered, registered and plated by Sept 10th), since the order was placed with the TESLA DEALER (which would then send the order to the manufacturer). However, the government has been steadfast in its refusal to allow Tesla cars (and Tesla consumers) from qualifying.

It is one thing to implement discriminatory and unfair rules, but it is even worse when one implements rules, and then immediately breaks them. I am hoping that the government and the MTO see the inherent unfairness in this approach and include Tesla vehicles in the wind-down offered to everyone else - i.e. the September 10th deadline for receiving, registering and plating the vehicles.

I also kindly request that you respond to me as soon as possible with an explanation for this seeming contradiction.

All the very best,

<name and address>
 

Tertulian

Member
Jul 2, 2018
137
210
Toronto
So I finally emailed [email protected] at the suggestion of the Ombudsman. This is what I wrote - feel free to borrow it if you like, though I would recommend tweaking it if you do so.

Good afternoon,

I am writing today to both protest the manner in which the EHVIP program was cancelled, as well express confusion at the singling out of a single manufacturer; Tesla.

On July 11th, the PC government released a press release stating that, effective immediately, the EHVIP program was ending. They also outlined particular rules for the dissolution of the program, which were as follows:

Applications will be accepted from dealerships, car owners or prospective car owners only if one of the following conditions has been met:

  • Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.

  • Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.
We were subsequently informed that, since Tesla consumers order their cars directly, they would have to have the vehicles delivered, plated and registered as of July 11th in order to qualify. Such discrimination amongst consumers due to the way in which they ordered their vehicles is highly unfair.

However, beyond this, consumers who ordered from Tesla DID order their cars through a dealership. Specifically, the Order Agreement (Purchase Agreement) electronically signed by consumers state that:

“You agree to purchase the vehicle (the “Vehicle”) described in your Vehicle Configuration from Tesla Motors Canada ULC or its affiliate (“we,” “us” or “our”), pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Your Vehicle is priced and configured based on features and options available at the time of order and you can confirm availability with your Owner Advisor. Options, features or hardware released after you place your order may not be included in or available for your Vehicle.”

‘Tesla Motors Canada ULC’ is a registered dealer in Ontario, as seen on this screen capture from the OMVIC website:



It would then seem that, according to the cancellation rules outlined by the PC government and the MTO, any orders placed with Tesla would qualify (provided the vehicle in delivered, registered and plated by Sept 10th), since the order was placed with the TESLA DEALER (which would then send the order to the manufacturer). However, the government has been steadfast in its refusal to allow Tesla cars (and Tesla consumers) from qualifying.

It is one thing to implement discriminatory and unfair rules, but it is even worse when one implements rules, and then immediately breaks them. I am hoping that the government and the MTO see the inherent unfairness in this approach and include Tesla vehicles in the wind-down offered to everyone else - i.e. the September 10th deadline for receiving, registering and plating the vehicles.

I also kindly request that you respond to me as soon as possible with an explanation for this seeming contradiction.

All the very best,

<name and address>
Whoops...here’s the screen cap to go with that
 

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Was at a local store and saw a beautiful white model 3...had to stop and ask the guy the 14K question...would u still buy this beauty if it were 14K more expensive...answer...YES!! Really nice man who advised that the hype around the car is justified. He also went through the items I rationalized...gas savings, maintenance costs vs an ICE car, and overall performance.

I'm still on the fence but have given myself the timeline of this weekend. Gotta say that I agree with many here that Tesla could have sent out a general email advising of the next steps in moving forward with Ontario orders...kinda seems like they were making it up as they go along. Nonetheless, the fellow I was talking to has been very impressed with the customer service he's been getting from tesla in terms of his M3.
 
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Abrew2014

Member
Jul 16, 2018
105
143
Toronto
I
Was at a local store and saw a beautiful white model 3...had to stop and ask the guy the 14K question...would u still buy this beauty if it were 14K more expensive...answer...YES!! Really nice man who advised that the hype around the car is justified. He also went through the items I rationalized...gas savings, maintenance costs vs an ICE car, and overall performance.

I'm still on the fence but have given myself the timeline of this weekend. Gotta say that I agree with many here that Tesla could have sent out a general email advising of the next steps in moving forward with Ontario orders...kinda seems like they were making it up as they go along. Nonetheless, the fellow I was talking to has been very impressed with the customer service he's been getting from tesla in terms of his M3.

Not arguing, it’s a great car and I really wish I had one....just became very frustrated very quickly with the company
 

llbean

Member
May 24, 2018
39
15
Toronto
-Emailed an inside sales advisor to cancel, was told that he cancelled it and it would be refunded on my credit card within 3 weeks

-Waited on phone for 90 minutes to confirm, was told it would take 30-60 days and would receive by Cheque

-Spoke to a supervisor, was told that if I clicked “request a refund” on my account (I never had that option) it would’ve been processed within two weeks on credit card, but since I did by phone it would take 30-60 days and be done by Cheque

This is honestly incredible....worst customer service I have ever had (and I’ve flown on Air Canada and had a cell phone for 15 years)

Where is the request a refund button?
 
So I finally emailed [email protected] at the suggestion of the Ombudsman. This is what I wrote - feel free to borrow it if you like, though I would recommend tweaking it if you do so.

Good afternoon,

I am writing today to both protest the manner in which the EHVIP program was cancelled, as well express confusion at the singling out of a single manufacturer; Tesla.

On July 11th, the PC government released a press release stating that, effective immediately, the EHVIP program was ending. They also outlined particular rules for the dissolution of the program, which were as follows:

Applications will be accepted from dealerships, car owners or prospective car owners only if one of the following conditions has been met:

  • Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.

  • Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.
We were subsequently informed that, since Tesla consumers order their cars directly, they would have to have the vehicles delivered, plated and registered as of July 11th in order to qualify. Such discrimination amongst consumers due to the way in which they ordered their vehicles is highly unfair.

However, beyond this, consumers who ordered from Tesla DID order their cars through a dealership. Specifically, the Order Agreement (Purchase Agreement) electronically signed by consumers state that:

“You agree to purchase the vehicle (the “Vehicle”) described in your Vehicle Configuration from Tesla Motors Canada ULC or its affiliate (“we,” “us” or “our”), pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Your Vehicle is priced and configured based on features and options available at the time of order and you can confirm availability with your Owner Advisor. Options, features or hardware released after you place your order may not be included in or available for your Vehicle.”

‘Tesla Motors Canada ULC’ is a registered dealer in Ontario, as seen on this screen capture from the OMVIC website:



It would then seem that, according to the cancellation rules outlined by the PC government and the MTO, any orders placed with Tesla would qualify (provided the vehicle in delivered, registered and plated by Sept 10th), since the order was placed with the TESLA DEALER (which would then send the order to the manufacturer). However, the government has been steadfast in its refusal to allow Tesla cars (and Tesla consumers) from qualifying.

It is one thing to implement discriminatory and unfair rules, but it is even worse when one implements rules, and then immediately breaks them. I am hoping that the government and the MTO see the inherent unfairness in this approach and include Tesla vehicles in the wind-down offered to everyone else - i.e. the September 10th deadline for receiving, registering and plating the vehicles.

I also kindly request that you respond to me as soon as possible with an explanation for this seeming contradiction.

All the very best,

<name and address>
Im sending my application in with this letter... what do u think?
Also look at this file
 

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Im sending my application in with this letter... what do u think?
Also look at this file
For sure apply. Worst case scenario is they say no and all you have lost is your time. But at least you are in the database should by some miracle things change. If my car comes before September 10 I'm applying and then going to fight with all I've got. Tesla is a dealership and I purchased it at the dealership which is their criteria I have met and in trying to weed out Tesla
 
Was at a local store and saw a beautiful white model 3...had to stop and ask the guy the 14K question...would u still buy this beauty if it were 14K more expensive...answer...YES!! Really nice man who advised that the hype around the car is justified. He also went through the items I rationalized...gas savings, maintenance costs vs an ICE car, and overall performance.

I'm still on the fence but have given myself the timeline of this weekend. Gotta say that I agree with many here that Tesla could have sent out a general email advising of the next steps in moving forward with Ontario orders...kinda seems like they were making it up as they go along. Nonetheless, the fellow I was talking to has been very impressed with the customer service he's been getting from tesla in terms of his M3.

I don't think anyone on here is arguing that it's not worth the hype. I believe it totally is.

Many peoples issue (mine included) is that I don't keep cars for long. Sure I could SAY I'll have this car for 10 years and it's going to be the best thing on the planet....then the Model Y comes out... My point is, when I go to try to sell that car I'm INSTANTLY taking a $14,000 loss on it over the next guy who got the rebate. That hurts.

Also, I currently don't have a car payment. I paid my car off in full when I purchased it. When I ran the numbers with my family's financial "guy", after trade in and rebate it was supposed to be in the $600 ish mark per month for fully loaded AWD non performance without FSD. That was perfect - I currently spend about $420 a month on gas, plus about $200 on ETR, my current car has several years left under warranty so maintenance wasn't a huge concern.

Without the rebate the same car with trade in is now just shy of $900 per month for 98 months. This is partly to do with the constantly increasing Tesla interest rate (4 months ago I was told 4.2% now it's up to 4.6% and apparently increasing to 4.8% soon). lastly, my current insurance is $98 per month. I was quoted $177 for the M3.

I can't justify spending over $300 more per month for a smaller car with (in my opinion) less practicality than my current SUV. If I was keeping it for 10 years, this would be a moot point. But I know for a fact I'll be bored of it in 3-4 when they're everywhere. I will never recuperate the $14,000 when I go to sell.

If the Fed's introduce an incentive that's close to what the US has. That'll drop the monthly payments to a more manageable $700 range.
I'll continue to hope and wait but I'm not getting myself into a financial hole because of hype and excitement.
 
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My point is, when I go to try to sell that car I'm INSTANTLY taking a $14,000 loss on it over the next guy who got the rebate. That hurts.

Not entirely correct logic I think.
The only way you lose is if there is a subsequent rebate offered and then you are disadvantaged by the new rebate, because that rebate will reduce the value of your car without you getting any value for it. If no further rebate is offered, the value of the used market Teslas will stabilize relative to the current replacement cost without a rebate.
You don't actually lose money, but you lose the ability to earn the extra $14,000 that your neighbor got and they aren't the same thing.
If a new rebate is introduced after you buy and before you sell, then you lose.
This is one of the reasons I oppose cash up front rebates. If rebates were paid back based on the per km usage of the vehicle and were transferable to the next owner, they would not diminish the used value in the same way as a cash up front rebate does, and would in fact increase the uptake by making it less painful to upgrade your car and pass the balance of the remaining savings onto the used market for them to save as well.
 

adaptabl

Banned
Mar 13, 2018
776
702
Canada
Not entirely correct logic I think.
The only way you lose is if there is a subsequent rebate offered and then you are disadvantaged by the new rebate, because that rebate will reduce the value of your car without you getting any value for it. If no further rebate is offered, the value of the used market Teslas will stabilize relative to the current replacement cost without a rebate.
You don't actually lose money, but you lose the ability to earn the extra $14,000 that your neighbor got and they aren't the same thing.
If a new rebate is introduced after you buy and before you sell, then you lose.
This is one of the reasons I oppose cash up front rebates. If rebates were paid back based on the per km usage of the vehicle and were transferable to the next owner, they would not diminish the used value in the same way as a cash up front rebate does, and would in fact increase the uptake by making it less painful to upgrade your car and pass the balance of the remaining savings onto the used market for them to save as well.

Upfront is the only way. Doing a per KM method is to expensive to maintain and the goal is to help EV adoption. The up front money helps in the initial purchase the most. The per KM method helps those who would of purchased an EV anyways the most.
 

jkirkwood001

Active Member
Supporting Member
Feb 20, 2018
1,178
4,840
Ottawa, ON
I don't think anyone on here is arguing that it's not worth the hype. I believe it totally is.

Many peoples issue (mine included) is that I don't keep cars for long. Sure I could SAY I'll have this car for 10 years and it's going to be the best thing on the planet....then the Model Y comes out... My point is, when I go to try to sell that car I'm INSTANTLY taking a $14,000 loss on it over the next guy who got the rebate. That hurts.

Also, I currently don't have a car payment. I paid my car off in full when I purchased it. When I ran the numbers with my family's financial "guy", after trade in and rebate it was supposed to be in the $600 ish mark per month for fully loaded AWD non performance without FSD. That was perfect - I currently spend about $420 a month on gas, plus about $200 on ETR, my current car has several years left under warranty so maintenance wasn't a huge concern.

Without the rebate the same car with trade in is now just shy of $900 per month for 98 months. This is partly to do with the constantly increasing Tesla interest rate (4 months ago I was told 4.2% now it's up to 4.6% and apparently increasing to 4.8% soon). lastly, my current insurance is $98 per month. I was quoted $177 for the M3.

I can't justify spending over $300 more per month for a smaller car with (in my opinion) less practicality than my current SUV. If I was keeping it for 10 years, this would be a moot point. But I know for a fact I'll be bored of it in 3-4 when they're everywhere. I will never recuperate the $14,000 when I go to sell.

If the Fed's introduce an incentive that's close to what the US has. That'll drop the monthly payments to a more manageable $700 range.
I'll continue to hope and wait but I'm not getting myself into a financial hole because of hype and excitement.

Good perspective, @BKR1986.

My $0.02 worth: financially (not emotionally), you're crazy to take out an 8 year loan on a depreciating asset. Especially since you say you don't keep cars long. A car is the worst "investment" you make in life. I don't know how old you are (I'm 55 and - I'll say it - a self-made millionaire, so I have some experience), but your money would help your life as a whole much more saved and making interest (e.g. children, house, travel, retirement). To me it sounds like you can't afford a Tesla. Yet.

The compromise is you buy a 2nd-hand hybrid or PHEV until the base Model 3 becomes available, or cheaper EVs come on the market.

Now if AWD is necessary for you, as it is for me, we hardly have any EV choices at the moment besides a Tesla. The Mitsubishi is a fit, but it's also new and expensive. Sounds like you might have to wait until you make more income. For me, any car loan over 3-4 years is a sign it's not affordable. STAY OUT OF DEBT.

A third option would be to buy a 2nd hand Model 3 in a few years, but that might be - by your own standard - too boring. Boring saves money. My Miata (pictured) is 2nd-hand, so I got a huge discount (bought it for $17 K, in the autumn natch), and I love how un-boring it is. :)

Not trying to sound preachy, but you've done your homework and from what you've shared, this car is beyond your budget IMO, I would say with or without the rebate.

Hope this helps!
 

Tertulian

Member
Jul 2, 2018
137
210
Toronto
Any news from the Ombudsmen office? I am getting a bit ancy here and want to cancel if it looks like this door is closed.

Finally I will be ordering a Standard battery Tesla when available - is there any advantage for me to leave my deposit with Tesla for this/'
Spoke with them yesterday. Apparently they are still ‘in talks’, but there’s been no change to the policy as yet. The ombudsman was adamant about emphasizing that they have no powers - legal or otherwise - to make a government change its mind. They don’t even advocate. All they do is relay concerns to the government. He made a point of saying that anything I do should be independent of what the Ombudsman’s office is doing, especially as there’s also no timeline for wrapping up their investigation.

The only thing he did say I could do to help ‘the cause’ was email [email protected] with the points we’d been raising about how Tesla is a dealer and should qualify. The more people do that, the better. That’s why I shared my email with everyone here.

The fat lady is singing, but the opera’s not quite done yet...however, it will be in a minuteor two, for good or ill.
 
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adaptabl

Banned
Mar 13, 2018
776
702
Canada
Good perspective, @BKR1986.

My $0.02 worth: financially (not emotionally), you're crazy to take out an 8 year loan on a depreciating asset. Especially since you say you don't keep cars long. A car is the worst "investment" you make in life. I don't know how old you are (I'm 55 and - I'll say it - a self-made millionaire, so I have some experience), but your money would help your life as a whole much more saved and making interest (e.g. children, house, travel, retirement). To me it sounds like you can't afford a Tesla. Yet.

The compromise is you buy a 2nd-hand hybrid or PHEV until the base Model 3 becomes available, or cheaper EVs come on the market.

Now if AWD is necessary for you, as it is for me, we hardly have any EV choices at the moment besides a Tesla. The Mitsubishi is a fit, but it's also new and expensive. Sounds like you might have to wait until you make more income. For me, any car loan over 3-4 years is a sign it's not affordable. STAY OUT OF DEBT.

A third option would be to buy a 2nd hand Model 3 in a few years, but that might be - by your own standard - too boring. Boring saves money. My Miata (pictured) is 2nd-hand, so I got a huge discount (bought it for $17 K, in the autumn natch), and I love how un-boring it is. :)

Not trying to sound preachy, but you've done your homework and from what you've shared, this car is beyond your budget IMO, I would say with or without the rebate.

Hope this helps!

We are in the same position. I would never finance a car for 8 years. I agree if you need to do that then you are buying the wrong car.

We have a reservation and were looking at the base model 3. With the rebates cancelled and the prices going up ($2,000.00 for paint). It is not looking like it will be worth it for us.

My wife was just looking last night at Ford Fusion PEV only 35KM on pure electricity (5.6L per 100km after that) but it will work for 90% of her driving and no expensive charging station to wire. The car is listed for $38,500.00 but with the discounts and the $7,000.00 Ontario rebate until Sept 11th ends up at $24,000.00 + HST That pretty loaded with leather, sunroof, syc3, 11 speaker stereo, navigation. It's looking like a pretty good deal for us for our second car. Our local dealer has about 20 more on order and should be hitting the lot any day. The sales manager told us they got a warning from Ford motor company a few days before the program was killed to put in a bunch of orders for the PEV's.
 
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