Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[adaptabl]

AWD or RWD? Also is the ombudsman looking into all Tesla orders or just RWD? I think the complaint needs to go all-in and include AWD purchases.

AWD was never part of the program. There is no way the Ford government is going to go back and change it for Tesla owners AWD or FWD. The program cancellation wording was done for a reason. Calculated and legal.

 

[dusdev]

AWD was never part of the program. There is no way the Ford government is going to go back and change it for Tesla owners AWD or FWD. The program cancellation wording was done for a reason. Calculated and legal.

AWD was not included in the current list but every intent was that it was to be included. In other words, it met all the requirements to be included in the $14k, the timing was just off.

The program cancellation wording was done for a reason. Calculated and legal.

Yes, calculated to be vindictive and mean spirited. We managed to elect the school yard bully, wonderful.

 

[BKR1986]

Everything you say makes perfect sense - good thinking. Thanks for asking for my perspective.

Three mitigating factors in your case:

1. Money borrowed under a home loan is cheaper than a car loan. Using the Tesla calculator I shared, I'm guessing your trade-in is worth about $14,000? A 2% lower loan rate will save you almost $7,000 over 8 years. I agree that's a better way to borrow the money.
2. More significantly, as you note, your current car costs you ~$620 / month. If you're willing to forego the 407 (HOV lanes towards your home?), given the premium on insurance, electricity, etc, you'd "save" ~$500 / month switching to a Tesla. So your $900 payment is net $400 / month / 8 years.
3. The added detail about having a net worth over $600 K and being employed in IT supports you having more cushion to leverage than some others.

Staying with car loan scenario, personally I would increase the payments (and eat out less) but shorten the period, say to 6 years. My calculator estimates your loan would cost $1,175 / month (see below) but after that, the same payment could go into TFSA or RRSP for your long-term benefit. This assumes you keep a car for more than the few years (financially-wasteful) people do who get leases (worst investment evah!).
If you bundle the loan into your mortgage, you save ~$7,000 but the payback duration gets averaged out. You might need to renew your mortgage for many extra years, but at least that loan is mostly towards building your equity, and at the lower rate.

Of course it depends what's more of a priority for you - there's no way getting a Tesla will "pay" you back financially. But, here's an idea (and I said the same thing when my son and daughter-in-law were anxious about buying their first-house):

• Buy the Tesla and see how the payments work out for one year.
• Use the mortgage rate, but aim to keep the duration as short as possible - a benefit of a mortgage is that the monthly payment stays the same even as your salary should go up year over year, so year 1 is the toughest year of paying off a mortgage.
• If the costs are too much, you sell your Tesla after a year, and even if it's only worth 70% of what you paid, that's still double or quadruple what you'd need for a replacement vehicle (a used car - suck it up, Princess). You take the extra 1/3 or 2/3 from the Tesla sale and make a bulk payment back into your mortgage to reduce its monthly payments (make sure your bank let's you do this).
• Your risk is not completely $80,000 over 8 years. It's 1-year's depreciation, say ~$15 K worst case.
• There's a chance the feds will introduce a rebate that lowers the resale value of the car. That would suck if you buy now. You can't control that. I try not to worry about what I can't control. Don't expect and you're never disappointed, is my philosophy. The rebate's unlikely to be $14,000 though so I doubt it'll be as severe as others are fearing.
• In other words, in a way the risk is not 8 years of high payments, it's paying ~$15,000 for one year of driving a Tesla and finding out if it's worth the impact to your lifestyle. That and your escape plan involves downgrading to a 2nd-hand car. As an "experience" there are worse bets. In my son's case, the maximum penalty to try out paying for a home was the move cost and the realtor's fee (assuming a stable housing market), but it wasn't "OMG I am stuck for 25 years!!" Buying a Tesla has less financial risk than buying a house, but both the depreciation - and the fun! - is more.

Is this helpful?

PS Out of the dozen cars I've owned, only 2 were new: a Pontiac Firefly (3-cylinder Suzuki!) which I bought when I was a courier and could therefore write-off the purchase, and my current 2013 Suzuki SX4 winter car, which I bought when Suzuki left North America and was on sale 25% off (new in 2013 for $17,500). The sweet spot are cars 2-years old - you can detail it for $150 to make it look new, but it costs ~$40% less than new.

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This is excellent information @jkirkwood001!
I completely understand what you're saying. I've actually never used your calculator before. I've been using CIBC's car payment estimator for the last year or so in preparation for this.

A worst case scenario being to downgrade to a used care is not bad at all. I've never owned a new car. Currently driving a 14' Santa Fe Limited that I bought for $35k cash to avoid the ridiculous 6% interest rate.

You're right, your estimate is nearly spot on. It's actually been appraised at $16,000 by Hyundai but I'm assuming Tesla will offer less so all of my numbers I've run with a valuation of $14,000. If it was any less I would have sold it to Hyundai and added the $16,000 to the $4200 down payment.

Would you say a refinance with the full payment of the car included within would be the "safest" option. My mortgage is VERY little in comparison to many friends and family I know. I'm currently paying sub $900 a month for my mortgage. Even if it went up by $300 (as estimated) or more, id be comfortable with that.

Ultimately, I still think I'd wait for a Federal incentive. It's bound to come to fruition and I don't NEED a car. I have 100K KM on it and have warranty to 180,000 KM. The car has been rock solid and in 4 years I've only done oil changes, tires once and brakes once.

 

[dani190]

AWD was never part of the program. There is no way the Ford government is going to go back and change it for Tesla owners AWD or FWD. The program cancellation wording was done for a reason. Calculated and legal.

You mean calculated and illegal.

 

[Tertulian]

AWD was never part of the program. There is no way the Ford government is going to go back and change it for Tesla owners AWD or FWD. The program cancellation wording was done for a reason. Calculated and legal.

Calculated...sure, but they did their math wrong; their intent was to exclude Tesla, but their wording was sloppy and it looks like Tesla still qualifies with their wording. So now they have an awkward problem - they say Tesla does not qualify, but their rules say that Tesla DOES qualify...and that might make excluding Tesla illegal. However, we’d need a lawyer (or maybe even a court decision) to know for sure.

Regardless, legal or not, this is definitely NOT fair...unless you’re one of those people who thinks that something is fair if it’s legal...in which case I guess you would also think that slavery was fair up until it became illegal.

 

[adaptabl]

Calculated...sure, but they did their math wrong; their intent was to exclude Tesla, but their wording was sloppy and it looks like Tesla still qualifies with their wording. So now they have an awkward problem - they say Tesla does not qualify, but their rules say that Tesla DOES qualify...and that might make excluding Tesla illegal. However, we’d need a lawyer (or maybe even a court decision) to know for sure.

Regardless, legal or not, this is definitely NOT fair...unless you’re one of those people who thinks that something is fair if it’s legal...in which case I guess you would also think that slavery was fair up until it became illegal.

The wording is not wrong:

• Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.
• Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.

Tesla buyers placed the order not the dealership. It's very clear.

 

[dani190]

No. I think one of Fords staff looked at the program and saw the large number of Tesla's rushed thru in the last month. The


The wording is not wrong:

• Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.
• Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.

Tesla buyers placed the order not the dealership. It's very clear.

Sure but no document states who ordered the car and they wont be getting that document... so good luck refusing it.

 

[Tertulian]

No. I think one of Fords staff looked at the program and saw the large number of Tesla's rushed thru in the last month. The


The wording is not wrong:

• Eligible vehicles that have been delivered to consumers, registered, and plated on or before July 11 will receive the incentive.
• Inventory that dealers have on lots or orders made by dealerships with manufacturers on or before July 11, will also be honoured for the incentive provided that the vehicle is delivered to consumers, registered, and plated by September 10.

Tesla buyers placed the order not the dealership. It's very clear.

WRONG!

The wording is very clear - the purchase agreement is with TESLA MOTORS CANADA ULC...and according to OMVIC, they’re a registered dealer.

It’s pretty simple...I think you should start reading these posts before you ‘Disagree’ with them. This is by now old news.

 

[adaptabl]

WRONG!

The wording is very clear - the purchase agreement is with TESLA MOTORS CANADA ULC...and according to OMVIC, they’re a registered dealer.

It’s pretty simple...I think you should start reading these posts before you ‘Disagree’ with them. This is by now old news.

Good luck.......

 

[Tertulian]

Good luck.......

Thank you - we’ll need it.

To be fair, there are many questions still -can the Ford government find a way around this? Can they break their own rule and simply say ‘nope’ with no reason? Can they, in fact, arbitrarily discriminate against people and companies with impunity (assuming of course that they’re not a protected group under the Charter)?

I don’t know the answers to these questions - thus my comment about the need for legal advice.

But one thing SEEMS certain; according to the rules they laid out, Tesla still qualifies.

 

[adaptabl]

Thank you - we’ll need it.

To be fair, there are many questions still -can the Ford government find a way around this? Can they break their own rule and simply say ‘nope’ with no reason? Can they, in fact, arbitrarily discriminate against people and companies with impunity (assuming of course that they’re not a protected group under the Charter)?

I don’t know the answers to these questions - thus my comment about the need for legal advice.

But one thing SEEMS certain; according to the rules they laid out, Tesla still qualifies.

If Tesla did still qualify (but they don't) than Tesla would be sending every car they could before the deadline. That ship has sailed. I highly doubt there will many more shipments to Ontario before the Sept 11th deadline anyways.

 

[Velianou]

Thank you - we’ll need it.

To be fair, there are many questions still -can the Ford government find a way around this? Can they break their own rule and simply say ‘nope’ with no reason? Can they, in fact, arbitrarily discriminate against people and companies with impunity (assuming of course that they’re not a protected group under the Charter)?

I don’t know the answers to these questions - thus my comment about the need for legal advice.

But one thing SEEMS certain; according to the rules they laid out, Tesla still qualifies.

If this is the case, the OMB will give clear guidance to us the consumer. We will have something in writing from their office. We will not be able to go through with the purchase on hearsay alone. Hopefully we’ll hear something soon. I’m getting antsy as well

 

[Ludatik]

Thank you - we’ll need it.

To be fair, there are many questions still -can the Ford government find a way around this? Can they break their own rule and simply say ‘nope’ with no reason? Can they, in fact, arbitrarily discriminate against people and companies with impunity (assuming of course that they’re not a protected group under the Charter)?

I don’t know the answers to these questions - thus my comment about the need for legal advice.

But one thing SEEMS certain; according to the rules they laid out, Tesla still qualifies.

Can you explain your rationale? In what must be a sure sign of the apocalypse, I think I agree with @adaptabl's interpretation of the cancellation policy. Are you saying that we ordered our cars through a Tesla dealer (i.e., Tesla Motors Canada) and that the Tesla dealer subsequently ordered the car from the manufacturer (i.e., Tesla Inc. USA)?

 

[Velianou]

If Tesla did still qualify (but they don't) than Tesla would be sending every car they could before the deadline. That ship has sailed. I highly doubt there will many more shipments to Ontario before the Sept 11th deadline anyways.

Even if Tesla ends up being included. The only ones included will be prior to July 11th. Some have already taken delivery. I can’t see more than 100 RWD customers being affected. Add AWD and there might be 200-300 more.

 

[adaptabl]

Sure but no document states who ordered the car and they wont be getting that document... so good luck refusing it.

Don't worry I am sure they will be very well aware of the invalid Tesla applications that may be submitted.

 

[Velianou]

Can you explain your rationale? In what must be a sure sign of the apocalypse, I think I agree with @adaptabl's interpretation of the cancellation policy. Are you saying that we ordered our cars through a Tesla dealer (i.e., Tesla Motors Canada) and that the Tesla dealer subsequently ordered the car from the manufacturer (i.e., Tesla Inc. USA)?

Yes there is no way that we can order directly through the US Corporation. Tesla must pay Canadian Taxes on there net income here. We are placing our order through Tesla Canada. The question is will the PC government tell us the consumer in writing the we are eligible. Right now the have told us in writing that we are ineligible.

 

[adaptabl]

Even if Tesla ends up being included. The only ones included will be prior to July 11th. Some have already taken delivery. I can’t see more than 100 RWD customers being affected. Add AWD and there might be 200-300 more.

AWD was never part of the program. I also doubt many AWD cars will hit Ontario before Sept 11th.

 

[Tertulian]

Can you explain your rationale? In what must be a sure sign of the apocalypse, I think I agree with @adaptabl's interpretation of the cancellation policy. Are you saying that we ordered our cars through a Tesla dealer (i.e., Tesla Motors Canada) and that the Tesla dealer subsequently ordered the car from the manufacturer (i.e., Tesla Inc. USA)?

Take a good look at your purchase agreement - it clearly states that your order was placed with TESLA MOTORS CANADA ULC (and it’s affiliates). TESLA MOTORS CANADA ULC is a registered dealer in Ontario. Go figure.

This is how I THINK it works: for Tesla to sell cars in Ontario they must be a registered dealer; you can’t ACTUALLY, legally buy from the US, thus you have to buy from their Canadian subsidiary, which also has to be a registered dealer.

Of course, it’s pretty much a legal distinction insofar as their ‘dealerships’ are not independently owned small businesses; they’re fully owned subsidiaries of Tesla in the US.

 

[dusdev]

Personally I think it's important to consider the intent and not the symantics. The point is to grandfather existing purchases and purchase agreements while winding down the program. Excluding one group versus another doesn't make any sense to me. I believe the Ombudsman will agree and recommend equal treatment.

To do otherwise would require at least some level of justification which there isn't any.

 

[Tertulian]

AWD was never part of the program. I also doubt many AWD cars will hit Ontario before Sept 11th.

In this I agree with you. AWD has no chance whatsoever.