Ontario EV Rebates Cancelled July 11, 2018

[Blazing Whisper]

It's a touchy subject, but important to note that the purpose of an incentive is to "incentivize" someone to take an action (i.e. buy an EV) that they wouldn't otherwise have done without it. It is not intended to be a "reward" for doing something you would have done anyway. Once EV adoption picks up and can stand on it's own, the incentives will (or should) end, otherwise is is a ripoff to the taxpayer.

I agree that eventually everyone will want and afford an EV and the incentives will expire but right now, that incentive is doing a lot to help me afford a Model 3 when it comes out. If it weren't for the incentive, I would have to think much longer and harder about swallowing the extra cost over just buying a much cheaper ICE. I would buy a Model 3 in a heartbeat if I can afford it but the incentive is what gives a ton of value to the car (not that it doesn't do well on its own).

 

[Doug_G]

It's a touchy subject, but important to note that the purpose of an incentive is to "incentivize" someone to take an action (i.e. buy an EV) that they wouldn't otherwise have done without it. It is not intended to be a "reward" for doing something you would have done anyway. Once EV adoption picks up and can stand on it's own, the incentives will (or should) end, otherwise is is a ripoff to the taxpayer.

Which is why we still give billions in tax incentives to the oil industry...

The high electricity prices in Ontario are not really due to the green energy initiatives, though that's the picture the opposition paints. In reality the mess that is our hydro system is the result of a collective effort between the successive Liberal, Conservative, and New Democratic governments. They've all contributed to the mess over many years, and our current situation is the end result.

I don't think the Ontario government has been run very well since Bill Davis.

 

[mknox]

I agree that eventually everyone will want and afford an EV and the incentives will expire but right now, that incentive is doing a lot to help me afford a Model 3 when it comes out.

Yep. I didn't say that now was the time to remove incentives... just that at some point they should be withdrawn when they are no longer driving behavior change.

Which is why we still give billions in tax incentives to the oil industry...

As I said, touchy subject

The high electricity prices in Ontario are not really due to the green energy initiatives, though that's the picture the opposition paints. In reality the mess that is our hydro system is the result of a collective effort between the successive Liberal, Conservative, and New Democratic governments. They've all contributed to the mess over many years, and our current situation is the end result.

I don't think the Ontario government has been run very well since Bill Davis.

Having worked in the Ontario electricity sector for over 36 years, I couldn't agree more!

 

[sitter_k]

I think people hold the Liberals more responsible because 1)they're the current government, so easy target 2) they campaign promising change but they're currently in majority power and havent done much 3) instituted debt retirement charge, paid it off then borrowed back into it making us pay again.

It's easier to be the challenger esp if you haven't been in power for more then a decade.

 

[mknox]

I think people hold the Liberals more responsible because 1)they're the current government, so easy target 2) they campaign promising change but they're currently in majority power and havent done much 3) instituted debt retirement charge, paid it off then borrowed back into it making us pay again.

The biggest change to the Ontario electricity sector came under the Mike Harris government when they "deregulated" it. What a lot of people don't realize is that prior to this, Ontario Hydro and the local utilities were NOT government owned, Crown Corporations or anything like that. The sector was specifically designed by Adam Beck in the early 1900's to be a "power at cost" entity but not under the government's ownership. It was essentially a giant Co-Op. Of course, being a natural monopoly, it was government regulated, just like other public utilities. And there was a lot of regulatory meddling over the years by governments of all stripes.

When the Harris government began the "deregulation" process, the first thing they had to do was enact legislation to expropriate everything. They gave shares of the pieces of the former Ontario Hydro to themselves and handed the shares of the local utilities back to the cities and towns they served in exchange for other "downloaded" services from the province. Towns were told they could sell their utility or operate it as a "for profit" entity earning a rate of return for the town. (the rate of return is regulated by the OEB and has typically been under 10%). It was at this point that Adam Beck's "power at cost" model was lost.

 

[rapoport3a]

The new Ontario incentives are announced. Teslas are up to $14,000 (where they should have been before), up to a purchase price of $150,000. So the cap of $3000 between $75K and $150K purchase price is removed.

 

[RiverBrick]

The new Ontario incentives are announced. Teslas are up to $14,000 (where they should have been before), up to a purchase price of $150,000. So the cap of $3000 between $75K and $150K purchase price is removed.

Great and fair correction to the program. The cap for vehicles between $75,000 - $150,000 (before options) is kept for PHEVs, but removed for BEVs.

 

[rapoport3a]

Yes, there may be some recognition that BEVs are a better choice. I haven't found evidence, though, of the free EV electricity or the dropping of PST or HST on purchases. With the upped incentive (in some cases) and the recently dropped PST on electricity for residences, it's safe to say that there won't be any increased incentives such as those mentioned/promised.

 

[Scifi_tv_fan]

Part of Ontario's Climate Change Action Plan, and in effect as of Jan. 1, 2017, the updated EVIP:

• Removes the cap limiting EV incentives to 30 per cent of the manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP)
• Eliminates the $3,000 cap on incentives for EVs fully run on battery power and priced between $75,000 and $150,000, which enable long-range, zero-emission travel and have less environmental impact than lower priced plug-in hybrids
• Continues to exclude EVs with an MSRP of $150,000 and above from qualifying for incentives
• Offers incentives only on vehicles produced by automakers who are partners in Ontario's new Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Advancement Partnership (EHVAP).

Here's the link to the announcement of Ontario making electric vehicles more affordable
Ontario Making Electric Vehicles More Affordable

I'm glad that they removed the cap limiting EV incentives to 30% of the MSRP!

More detailed information regarding the Electric Vehicle Incentive Program (EVIP) is found at the following link:
Electric vehicles incentive program

 

[Scifi_tv_fan]

Yes, there may be some recognition that BEVs are a better choice. I haven't found evidence, though, of the free EV electricity or the dropping of PST or HST on purchases. With the upped incentive (in some cases) and the recently dropped PST on electricity for residences, it's safe to say that there won't be any increased incentives such as those mentioned/promised.

There is no guarantee that they will be eliminating the PST or HST on purchases of EV's. The action plan only stated the following:

2.2 Eliminate HST on zero emission vehicles
Ontario will work with the federal government to explore ways to provide full-HST relief to purchasers of new battery electric vehicles, with the objective of introducing this relief by 2018.

Therefore that means they are trying to negotiate with the federal goverment to attempt to have it removed.

 

[mknox]

Yes, there may be some recognition that BEVs are a better choice. I haven't found evidence, though, of the free EV electricity or the dropping of PST or HST on purchases. With the upped incentive (in some cases) and the recently dropped PST on electricity for residences, it's safe to say that there won't be any increased incentives such as those mentioned/promised.

A contact of mine in the electric utility sector tells me that the province is still committed to the concept of "free overnight charging" and are working with LDCs to figure out how to implement. As I've mentioned before, it is no small feat and fairly expensive to implement a technical solution to this, so I am expecting some sort of calculated billing rebate (but that is just a guess on my part).

 

[Gen3]

I'm very excited to see this program renewed, and Tesla being treated fairly! I don't directly benefit from this but I know it will result in less emissions in Ontario, which is good overall. Hopefully the HST gets removed too. I may benefit in a couple years buying a used tesla if the incentives are still in place.

 

[mknox]

I may benefit in a couple years buying a used tesla if the incentives are still in place.

Unfortunately, the incentive is only for new vehicles. Lifting the HST (if it ever happens) would help.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Thanks to @Scifi_tv_fan for the update. I just noticed that there's an extended mileage EVIP for manufacturers that allow cars that have between 2000km and 15000km at the point of sale to qualify! Am I reading this right? This is HUGE, if one get get a Demo car with an additional $14000 off!!! The dealer will need to complete the paper work prior to reaching 2000km on the vehicle, and must maintain logs, hardly difficult to do.

If I Recall Correctly, for Ontario the prior limit was 2000km.

 

[Gen3]

Unfortunately, the incentive is only for new vehicles. Lifting the HST (if it ever happens) would help.

I agree. I think the incentives keep used prices lower than they would be otherwise, and therefore good deal if I buy one and bring it to Saskatchewan.

 

[wayner]

A contact of mine in the electric utility sector tells me that the province is still committed to the concept of "free overnight charging" and are working with LDCs to figure out how to implement. As I've mentioned before, it is no small feat and fairly expensive to implement a technical solution to this, so I am expecting some sort of calculated billing rebate (but that is just a guess on my part).

IMHO they should just rebate you the off-peak cost of 500kWh or whatever the average consumption of an EV would be. Otherwise it is going to be too much of a burden to calculate.

 

[RiverBrick]

IMHO they should just rebate you the off-peak cost of 500kWh or whatever the average consumption of an EV would be. Otherwise it is going to be too much of a burden to calculate.

But then people will just recharge when they get home, during a peak period.

 

[mrElbe]

But then people will just recharge when they get home, during a peak period.

It would still be advantageous to charge during night for lower electricity charge on your total bill saving 9.3 cents per kWh of charging.

 

[wayner]

It would still be advantageous to charge during night for lower electricity charge on your total bill saving 9.3 cents per kWh of charging.

Exactly. How would you set up the rebate regime? Would the local electrical utility flag all of the owners of EVs and treat them differently? What if that was very difficult to do in the IT system of the local electricity distributor? Who is going to pay for all of the sytems development work required and how many millions is that going to cost?

 

[Jaff]

I think people hold the Liberals more responsible because 1)they're the current government, so easy target 2) they campaign promising change but they're currently in majority power and havent done much 3) instituted debt retirement charge, paid it off then borrowed back into it making us pay again.

It's easier to be the challenger esp if you haven't been in power for more then a decade.

I think you need to add to your list that it's not just the fact that they're the current government, but that the Liberals have been the current government for well over a decade....