Ontario Superchargers - the numbers

[Vawlkus]

As someone in Halifax, I kinda disagree with putting superchargers in downtown Halifax or Dartmouth. Our ability to handle traffic is poor at best.
IMHO they need to be near highways, so I’d see Bedford, Enfield or something similar. Near the airport is a possibility, but there’s jack all for amenities there.

 

[wayner]

Near the airport is a possibility, but there’s jack all for amenities there.

There's a Timmie's between the airport and Hwy 102 - put it beside that.

 

[MarcoRP]

This thread has more turned to Canada in general. Should we change the name Ontario?

 

[sakimano]

let's be realistic...you're still going to charge at 350-450 km/hr at an urban supercharger...it's not like it's level 2 or something.

So the 'benefit' of having a slower supercharger to let you shop longer is silly as it won't be much different.

Just set your charge level to 100%...that will give you an extra 30 minutes.

Worst case, you move your car. Those saying 'but christmas is so busy' well you only have to find a parking spot once. The tesla spot you probably just rolled into without any trouble.

I did this on the weekend at Vaughan mills. Charged to 100% from about 15%. Took a bit more than an hr and then I moved the car. This was as cold a day as you'll likely ever experience in southern ontario at -25 with 30kms of wind blowing. Going out to move the car after getting my free tank of gas was no big deal at all.

 

[Sisko - DS9]

30 stalls in Moncton?!

I'm not ready to comment. I'm still recovering from the drive back to Toronto from Charlottetown.

First of all, that must have been a very trying trip. With the cold and the harsh conditions through the maritimes and Quebec; I am glad you made it through, unscathed I hope!

That may be too many chargers for Moncton yes, but from my research Moncton has become the main economic hub of NB. Fredriction is essentially a government town. Most of the high tech industry has re/located to Moncton. Apparently it is more of an economic hub than Saint John. Also, Moncton appears to be the gateway to Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and Cape Breton. Geographically it is positioned that way as well. I thought of 30 because with that Tesla would not have to add/expand to the site for more chargers for a number of years to come. It seems no sense to put in 12 charger site only to have to add 10 or more chargers in 3/4 years becuase it got to busy. Just put in the numbers now and in 10-12 years you may have to expand.

It is not an exact science, but I try to factor in other tangent parameters and criteria. I also try to take a long view look ahead.

Well, glad you are recovering. Have yourself a pleasnt - well earned, restful day.

 

[rypalmer]

It seems no sense to put in 12 charger site only to have to add 10 or more chargers in 3/4 years becuase it got to busy.

This is wrong, IMO. It makes far more sense to start with smaller stations at wider intervals, and backfill as necessary. Think about where Ontario is now in terms of EV adoption. Atlantic Canada is 4 years behind. Yet, Kingston Supercharger has been serving us well the past 3 years with only 6 stalls. I'm there a lot and I've never had to wait for a stall.

This assumes Supercharger capital costs scale near linearly as a function of # of stalls, which I'd be willing to bet they do.

 

[MarcoRP]

Moncton isn't bigger than Calgary. There is only 8 stalls ( maybe more soon) 30 stalls would mean the biggest Supercharger in Canada! There would be like 1 charger for one fifth of a Tesla!

 

[Sisko - DS9]

let's be realistic...you're still going to charge at 350-450 km/hr at an urban supercharger...it's not like it's level 2 or something.

So the 'benefit' of having a slower supercharger to let you shop longer is silly as it won't be much different.

Just set your charge level to 100%...that will give you an extra 30 minutes.

Worst case, you move your car. Those saying 'but christmas is so busy' well you only have to find a parking spot once. The tesla spot you probably just rolled into without any trouble.

I did this on the weekend at Vaughan mills. Charged to 100% from about 15%. Took a bit more than an hr and then I moved the car. This was as cold a day as you'll likely ever experience in southern ontario at -25 with 30kms of wind blowing. Going out to move the car after getting my free tank of gas was no big deal at all.

I do not think right now we are experiencing the real eqiupment difference in the superchargers. What I mean by that is Elon alluded to superchargers ("SC") going to be faster. So I doubt Tesla is going to have to build completely new SC sites when their new faster capabilities are released. They will simply upgrade current regular superchargers; but I think the urban ones will be uneffected. They will likely stay at that 72kWh rate max; whereas the regular SC will be bumped to accomodate that range of 350kWh rate. At that point, the difference would be uncontroversial. Time will tell, right!

 

[sakimano]

I do not think right now we are experiencing the real eqiupment difference in the superchargers. What I mean by that is Elon alluded to superchargers ("SC") going to be faster. So I doubt Tesla is going to have to build completely new SC sites when their new faster capabilities are released. They will simply upgrade current regular superchargers; but I think the urban ones will be uneffected. They will likely stay at that 72kWh rate max; whereas the regular SC will be bumped to accomodate that range of 350kWh rate. At that point, the difference would be uncontroversial. Time will tell, right!

good point. I imagine once ze germans have their network up and runnning across europe it will force tesla's hand to up the supercharger speeds if the 350kw power is quoted correctly .

Elon teases the truck at the semi event and talks about how quickly it will charge...or shows a 200 kwh battery on a roadster and everyone says 'those numbers don't add up'. Those people are assuming tesla hasn't made any advancements in battery tech or charging tech behind closed doors. Clearly that tech exists and we're just not aware of it.

Just as Porsche could make the 911 turbo S run 0-60 mph in 1.9 seconds and 1/4 mile in 9.0 @ 151 today if they wanted to, they don't because they want to launch that tech and power over time and get there gradually. By the same token, Tesla I'm sure has a lot of tricks up their sleeves that they're not putting in our hands yet for a few reasons, most importantly being that there's no competition so why break your own records?

 

[Sisko - DS9]

This is wrong, IMO. It makes far more sense to start with smaller stations at wider intervals, and backfill as necessary. Think about where Ontario is now in terms of EV adoption. Atlantic Canada is 4 years behind. Yet, Kingston Supercharger has been serving us well the past 3 years with only 6 stalls. I'm there a lot and I've never had to wait for a stall.

This assumes Supercharger capital costs scale near linearly as a function of # of stalls, which I'd be willing to bet they do.

You may be correct, but I have always noticed that tech expansion is not linear. It is not 4 years ago and just because one area grew in a certain way back a few years doesn't mean you have to commit another area to the same growth limitation in the present time.

Take for example the EV industry itself. There is another new player in the field and they just released their concept EV model. They are called Byton and their first EV is not some small entry level first try. Their EV concept has all the up-to-date tech and advancements. They are aiming to compete against Tesla now not 10 years from now. Growth over time, in my opinion, functions on a "logrithmic" rate and not a functionally linear one. Next level growth is supposed to build off what has grown already, not make it start from behind what has been learned. Tesla is in a different state today than what it was in years ago. I may be too aggressive on 30 stalls, but I do not think it is necessary to plaster sites all over. Better to have 3 large sites than 12 smaller ones. I don't think Tesla should follow the "gas station on every corner" type ideology. That is what destination chargers and home chargers are for - in my opinion.

Remember 4 years ago in Ontario,Tesla did not have Model 3... but by the end of 2018, they will be in Canada and the scale of their uptake is going to be huge. That followed by Model Y and a pick-up!

 

[wayner]

I do not think right now we are experiencing the real eqiupment difference in the superchargers. What I mean by that is Elon alluded to superchargers ("SC") going to be faster. So I doubt Tesla is going to have to build completely new SC sites when their new faster capabilities are released. They will simply upgrade current regular superchargers; but I think the urban ones will be uneffected. They will likely stay at that 72kWh rate max; whereas the regular SC will be bumped to accomodate that range of 350kWh rate. At that point, the difference would be uncontroversial. Time will tell, right!

The problem with this could very well be, as @mknox has pointed out in threads about Superchargers at highway rest stops, can the grid support all that power? Think of 20-30 SCs charging faster (which means more kW). Can the local electrical utility support that without doing upgrades to the grid? Maybe that should be a consideration in choosing the sites for SCs.

 

[PLUS EV]

Also, from a driver standpoint having more smaller supercharging stations is superior to having one large one. Building a 30-stall supercharger in Moncton any time soon is just laughable.

 

[Sisko - DS9]

Also, from a driver standpoint having more smaller supercharging stations is superior to having one large one. Building a 30-stall supercharger in Moncton any time soon is just laughable.

Interesting you say that. I recall thousands of people just a short 5 years ago saying that there will never be an electric car that can go 450+ kilometres, be able to charge quickly and use to travel all over and have it as your main vehicle. Many, many people said that was laughable. Where are they now?

Look I believe in Tesla and its mission; I think they are on the right track. Have they made mistakes? sure. Who hasn't. They are not infallible. By the way neither are the big ICE car manufactures. Don't tell me they haven't made mistakes - there are many examples of what they have done and the public has suffered at their hands. I do not work for Tesla, but I admire their will to move forward in the face of such opposition and in many cases downright absurd lies and misinformation wrapped in a blanket of "knowledge" and "facts."

I simply was formulating my opinion and making an extrapolation, based on quantitative data, statistical analysis coupled with taking into consideration sociological parameters (population changes, governmental initiatives, etc). Maybe you know better... but maybe you don't. I do not by any means think I have some moratorium on what should be where and when; I was simply sharing my opinion and wish list, After all this is what the forum is for- sharing ideas.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

BTW - You also missed Orangeville. I suspect 8 stalls. I'm watching the prime locations weekly......

 

[Phillip L]

We do have to remember that the anticipation is that the Model 3 production will be 5 times the current Model S and X production, of which they themselves will continue to be at the 100,000 level. That is a lot of new vehicles coming.

 

[sakimano]

unfortunately I can't edit the original post. I can just repost it pasted with your corrections...or maybe I'll report it and ask a mod to adjust the OP.

 

[sakimano]

We do have to remember that the anticipation is that the Model 3 production will be 5 times the current Model S and X production, of which they themselves will continue to be at the 100,000 level. That is a lot of new vehicles coming.

The model 3 isn't free to supercharge so I don't imagine people will be nearly as quick to supercharge when they have to pay $10. They'll just do it at home where they have a choice which is more convenient too.

Can't forget there are hundreds of people locally who use the superchargers as their sole source of charging just because it's on the way and free. The Lawrence staff recognize the same people who stop there 2x a week on their commute downtown from 905. So that behaviour likely won't exist in the Model 3 owner population and the model S/X population when free supercharging goes away.

 

[sakimano]

Is this right now?

Open Now - 14 SC locations; 132 Stalls
Barrie Bayfield 20
Concord - Vaughan Mills 20
Barrie 8
Comber (Windsor) 8
Grimsby 8
Huntsville 8
Ottawa 8
Parry Sound 8
Port Hope 8
Sudbury 8
Toronto - Lawrence 8
Woodstock 8
Cornwall 6
Kingston 6

Under Construction - 7 locations; 110 stalls
Etobicoke - Sherway 20
Hamilton 20
Markham 20
Pickering 20
Cambridge 14
Casselman 8
Owen Sound 8

Coming soon - 31 locations; 320 stalls
Mississauga 20
Mississauga Meadowvale 20
St Catharines 20
Toronto - Scarborough 20
Vaughan 20
Waterloo 20
Belleville 8
Blind River 8
Brockville 8
Deep River 8
Dryden 8
Espanola 8
Ignace 8
Kenora 8
Nipigon 8
North Bay 8
Orangeville 8
Orillia 8
Renfrew 8
Sault Ste Marie 8
Stardale 8
Terrace Bay 8
Thunder Bay 8
Toronto - Downtown 8
Toronto - Liberty Village 8
Toronto - North York 8
Toronto - The Annex 8
Toronto - Yonge Eglinton 8
Upsala 8
Wawa 8
White River 8

 

[MarcoRP]

Yes, maybe not for the predicted locations

 

[wayner]

I would change "Coming Soon" to "Target Opening by end of 2018". Interesting that Tesla uses the former on the textual list of SCs and the latter on the map. Tesla rarely meets their deadlines so I would guess that many of these are not open in 12 months. They opened less than 25% of the 2017 list were opened in 2017. Even if you include the ones under construction right now they only hit 50% of their targeted openings.

Stardale - this site has likely been moved to Casselman although that isn't 100% clear.

It is also possible that they expand some existing sites - like Kingston or Woodstock by adding more SCs. Or they may even open a second site - like Barrie.