TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Ontario to spend 7 Billion on Climate Plan

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Ktowntslafan, May 16, 2016.

Tags:
  1. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,773
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    The cost would be laughable for the 1.5 kW charger I use with my Smart ED every night, about 5 kWh of total electricity draw, or about $0.70 at nightly rates. Just writing this down blows my mind, this little car is cheap to drive!

    As for our Tesla, it uses more electricity in vampire draw than my Smart ED does with my 40 km daily commute, so again, about $1.00 per day.

    Side note : My Smart ED has zero energy usage sitting idle. It's not even measurable.


    All this to say, free electricity is of very little value compared to the >> $10000 in incentive money!
     
  2. LazMan

    LazMan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Toronto
    I don't understand. Why all this money for a miscellaneous group of programs which may or may not be effective. Why not a revenue neutral significant carbon tax and let the market find the most efficient way decarbonize?
     
  3. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2014
    Messages:
    2,744
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    A few years ago I got the inside track, from an engineer working on one of the projects, on how the FIT programs work for some of the medium scale wind programs in SW Ontario were structured. At that time they had some long term agreements in place on something over 30c/kwhr. He was quite clear that there was zero economic case for these units, even if you didn't consider the additional distribution infrastructure required and the fact that you had to build other (gas) infrastructure that would be available in low wind conditions. He was also clear that, but for the taxpayer support, none would ever be built.

    I don't have the current numbers for the larger FIT projects, but at present, certainly the smaller fit projects offer rates way above 8c/kwhr. There is zero economic case for any of them. And it should be noted that these FIT rates are quite a bit down from the earlier ones that we are presently paying for and will continue to.

    FIT Price Schedule | Feed-in Tariff Program - Independent Electricity System Operator

    For reference here is a report comparing power rates across NA. Unsurprisingly, we pay the highest rates on the continent.

    http://www.hydroquebec.com/publications/en/docs/comparaison-electricity-prices/comp_2014_en.pdf

    And of course there is the auditors report on the giant f-up that is the Liberal legacy in relation to planning our power grid. They've let partisan interests and ideology massively overrun what should be a technical & economic planning process and our economy will be paying the price for a very very long time.

    http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en15/3.05en15.pdf

    I'm all in favour of green power. But what we're doing here in Ontario, stumbling around drunkenly from one politically driven scheme, crisis, scandal, etc... to another has to come to an end.
     
  4. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Messages:
    450
    Location:
    SW Ontario
  5. Duckjybe

    Duckjybe Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    806
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I strongly urge the Ontario government to eliminate the Electric Vehicle Incentive Program (EVIP) MSRP cap on long range BEV's. See my graph of the inequity of the current program and its carbon emissions injustice. There is too little incentive for the lowest emitting, most practical, long range BEV's - namely Tesla vehicles. There is too much incentive for small battery plug-in hybrids.

     
    • Like x 4
  6. Duckjybe

    Duckjybe Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    806
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    • Like x 1
  7. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,395
    Location:
    Toronto
    True, that report shows higher rates in many major US cities and that was done when the C$ was 0.90. Doing that today when we are at $0.78 would make Ontario look even less, even if rates in Ontario have risen more than those in other places.

    You can find US electricity on a state by state basis here but it isn't clear if that includes all taxes, surcharges, etc. You can see that many places, such as the Northeast and California, are above $0.15/kWh which makes them higher even before considering the exchange rate.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Messages:
    450
    Location:
    SW Ontario
    Looks interesting. Would you be able to list the assumptions used to make this graph?
     
  9. Phillip L

    Phillip L Gas Passer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2015
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada
    What about the media reports that Ontario often has excess electricity that it has to pay American utilizes to take off our hands? If true would make sense to use it here for ev's.
     
  10. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,395
    Location:
    Toronto
    Actually we do export most of the time and you can see it in pretty much real-time here. Gridwatch

    Currently we are only exporting (net) 421MW which is pretty small given the current generation of 14,643MW. Ontario is exporting to Michigan, Minnesota and NY and importing from Quebec and Manitoba.
     
  11. Duckjybe

    Duckjybe Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2012
    Messages:
    806
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Here is the spreadsheet. Let me know if you see any errors. All the fuel economy numbers are from Natural Resources Canada which are from U.S. EPA www.fueleconomy.gov. Screen Shot 2016-05-17 at 12.35.54 PM.png
     
    • Helpful x 1
  12. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,135
    Location:
    Grimsby, Canada
    Won't matter to us Phillip...Tesla's will probably be disqualified from the free (night time) power thang... ;)
     
  13. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,395
    Location:
    Toronto
    I already have two meters - one for consumption and one for my microFIT generation. I really don't need a third especially if I have to eat the cost of hooking it up. And how are they going to police whether the consumption is going to your car or not?

    Just give EV owners something like 20 kWh/day of free electricity in off-peak periods, or an Ontario Tax Credit for an equivalent amount (which is about $1100/year). Much easier.
     
    • Like x 1
  14. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,135
    Location:
    Grimsby, Canada
    Sorry, I don't see it that way. I see zero reason to apply social equity rules to what should be exclusively environmental policies.

    For the record, because I drive a long range BEV, I doubt I'll use any / many of the CHAdeMo charging stations in Ontario.
     
    • Like x 2
  15. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,773
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    Ontario offers contracts to 11 firms to build new renewable energy projects

    I agree completely with the Liberal government bashing, and the conservatives deserve every bit as much, but let's ignore politics.

    The latest wind energy prices are cheaper than refurb nuclear, presuming nukes don't blow past price estimates (Ya right!)
     
  16. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,773
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    There were a few trips I didn't take in the Tesla this past winter due to lack of charging. More than 350 km in -20C takes nerves in an S85! A DC charger in Milton would have made a few trips much more convenient. We waited 2 hours in Milton to get a buffer to get home on a trip this past winter, would only have been 15 minutes at a CHAdeMO charger...
     
  17. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,773
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    Here is my blog with a chart from IESO showing the nuke plants boiling water because of low overnight demand:
    Smart Electric Drive: Choose one : boil steam or recharge a million electric cars

     
  18. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,773
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    It isn't only long range BEV's which are affected. The fact the Audi e-tron gets a larger incentive than pure electric cars like my awesome little Smart ED makes no sense either, as the Smart ED makes a 80 km all-electric-range (AER) commute possible, and the Audi is lucky to get 25 km AER in winter.
     
    • Like x 2
  19. Phillip L

    Phillip L Gas Passer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2015
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada
    Exactly. Either blow it off in steam, pay to give it away or use it to power ev's. This could make sense. And if it is most commonly at certain times in the middle of the night, those hours can easily be designated the free hours for charging and the Ev owners can program that for their cars easier than almost any other electric appliance out there.
     
    • Like x 2
  20. wayner

    wayner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,395
    Location:
    Toronto
    Or use it to charge batteries at night and discharge them during the day. Assuming free electricity at night and peak rates of $0.2 and offpeak of $0.15 you could save about $432 per year with a 6.4kWh Tesla Powerwall by charging it every night and discharging it during the day. They cost US$3000 or C$4000. So that is a 9.5 year payback - but then you also have to add in an inverter which is another US$3000. Maybe you could reuse your PV inverter, if you had one?
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC