Opinion: FSD, Why you should not buy it.

[clydeiii]

You don't have FSD. You have EAP, which Tesla in its wisdom decided to quit selling by itself, and make you pay for FSD (which does not exist, and won't for at least several years) if you want EAP.

Just to be clear, when Teslas begin braking for red lights and stop lights in the next few months, will that not be part of the FSD suite of functions?

 

[kkillebrew]

It can't hurt Tesla. It can hurt someone who can't afford $7,000 without getting something of real value for it. But why stop at $7,000? Why not give then $100,000? Heck, why not give them $1,000,000? That might get them to FSD even sooner. It would certainly show them that you're serious.



There are no safe bets. And Tesla has arbitrarily chosen to cripple itself by insisting on using cameras alone, and only eight of those.



You don't have FSD. You have EAP, which Tesla in its wisdom decided to quit selling by itself, and make you pay for FSD (which does not exist, and won't for at least several years) if you want EAP.

I bought EAP with mine and I think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I think Tesla might end up being the first with FSD, but I'm not going to lock myself in by buying it before it exists. Tesla has plenty of money of mine, which I was happy to give them because they gave me something in return: A car, some equity in the company, some interest-paying bonds, and then another car. All good sound purchases. And they can have some more money of mine when they offer something of value in return. FSD on a car with 8 cameras and no lidar is a pig in a poke.

Unfortunately, Tesla has chosen to obfuscate the matter by changing the definition of FSD. For someone who has EAP, buying FSD is paying for absolutely nothing but a promise. For someone buying a car today, you have to pay for the worthless promise of a self-driving car "some day" if you want to get the features of EAP. When I bought mine, you had to buy EAP just to get the basic AP. Now the basic AP comes in all Teslas but you can't buy EAP without paying for FSD.

It's just plain dishonest to say that anything short of Level 5 is Full Self Driving, and Tesla has as good as admitted that that is years away, yet they're still selling the promise, and requiring you to buy that promise if you want EAP.

,

Does not change my opinion, and has not changed the mind of many others if you look at sales. I am happy with what I have regardless of anyone else's subjective view of what I believe I bought or did not buy.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Just to be clear, when Teslas begin braking for red lights and stop lights in the next few months, will that not be part of the FSD suite of functions?

It will be part of FSD. That was not in EAP.

But, remember that when Elon Musk says "maybe <time period>", he means "not <time period> but maybe some time after that if we ever figure it out".

 

[clydeiii]

It will be part of FSD. That was not in EAP.

But, remember that when Elon Musk says "maybe <time period>", he means "not <time period> but maybe some time after that if we ever figure it out".

Given that the hardest part of stopping at red lights is the detection of red lights, and that seems to be working pretty well at the moment, it seems pretty certain they've "figured it out." Now, turning left on a green arrow at an intersection, that's harder, but seems likely less than a year out.

 

[daniel]

I wasn't really asking you, I was asking Daniel, who seems to think there's a possibility some other car can get there faster. Just wondering, in his opinion, what that car is.

Waymo is not in the business of making cars. They are in the business of developing a technology which they would lease to car makers. If Waymo succeeds before Tesla does, which I think is a possibility, that technology could be available to every car maker that wants to pay for a license. If Tesla refuses to pay, they could be the only company that does not have a fully autonomous car, though it's more likely that some car makers would and others would not.

I consider it 50/50 whether Tesla or Waymo gets there first. Alphabet (Formerly Google) is, after all, all about information processing.

There was some discussion a while back suggesting that Mobileye might be ahead of Tesla as well. I think (but I'm not at all certain) that their business model is to sell technology rather than build cars themselves. If they get there first, any car maker could buy the technology.

My wish is for a car built by Tesla with Waymo autonomy technology. I won't buy a gasoline car, but I'll buy the first electric car that comes out with full autonomy, whoever that is. I'm rooting for Tesla. And I've invested in Tesla. But I'm not locking myself in if someone else beats them to the punch.

Just to be clear, when Teslas begin braking for red lights and stop lights in the next few months, will that not be part of the FSD suite of functions?

If Teslas begin braking for red lights and stop signs, that would indeed be a feature that would set the FSD package apart from the AP package. And if they do it reliably and consistently with fewer than 0.1% false positives or false negatives, I will seriously consider paying for FSD. If there are more than 10% false responses I probably would not regard it as a useful feature, as I'd have to respond before knowing whether that car was going to or not, and having it stop in the absence of a red light or stop sign would be very dangerous.

However, your use of the word "when" demonstrates a higher level of confidence than I feel. The safety concern over false responses is why I don't expect this feature to come sooner than a year from now, if then, Elon's notoriously unreliable timeframe predictions notwithstanding. Actually, I'd rather have autosteer at Level 3 than have City NoA at level 2. I would definitely upgrade my car for autosteer at Level 3 even without NoA. I don't expect that within 5 years, and I think 10 is more likely.

 

[Atreyu]

any time there is a right lane that enters the highway, its a wide lane that narrows (2 lane merge). AP has problems with that and wants to be centered when it SHOULD just hug the left line and follow that. that's the thing that should guide it, not 'centering'.

and yet, in some cases, centering might be better.

its this 'it all depends' that continues to make me think that level 5 is a long long way off and even a perfected level 2 is still years away.

I wish I could put in manual geo-based (gps) work-arounds for the frequent roads I take. when those 2 lanes merge on rt237, for me, I'd like my car to do what *I* tell it to do, and then LEARN IT so that it won't fight with me next time I take that same road.

is it asking too much to have it learn from ME and remember?

that feature is not there. hope it comes, someday.

An easy fix would be to allow more steering wheel inputs. You can accelerate with no issues in the pedal but you should be able to guide the car thru a turn if need be. Especially with the ping pong issue.

 

[daniel]

An easy fix would be to allow more steering wheel inputs. You can accelerate with no issues in the pedal but you should be able to guide the car thru a turn if need be. Especially with the ping pong issue.

It may not be ideal, but I do not find it difficult to disengage autosteer, steer through a spot that EAP would not handle the way I want, and then re-engage autosteer. It's all part of being at Level 2. It cannot handle all situations. We need to be alert, and if you're alert it's a flick of the stalk to take over, and two quick taps to give it back to the car.

If you want more than that you're asking for Level 3 or 4. I want level 3 or 4 and will pay whatever it costs when it becomes available. But there's not much point in complaining that Level 2 cannot do what Level 4 would.

And FWIW, The features that are now being promised for so-called "FSD" would make a difference for about 1% of my driving: It would stop for red lights and stop signs, and it would make turns. Those are about 1%. The other 99% is straight-line driving, mostly within a single lane. And while that's not perfect, as noted above, "FSD" at Level 2 will not be perfect either and will require interventions.

If you have to intervene, it's not full self-driving. It's partial self-driving. Elon was fully aware of this when he first announced FSD as a car that could drive without a driver in it. And that's what he explicitly promised to people who paid for FSD. Now all he's promising if you pay for FSD is a system with defective versions of all the "features," requiring you to be alert and responsible. If there's an accident it's your fault because Tesla is telling you that "feature-complete" FSD won't actually work except occasionally. AP and EAP are still listed as beta features all these years later.

 

[Atreyu]

It may not be ideal, but I do not find it difficult to disengage autosteer, steer through a spot that EAP would not handle the way I want, and then re-engage autosteer. It's all part of being at Level 2. It cannot handle all situations. We need to be alert, and if you're alert it's a flick of the stalk to take over, and two quick taps to give it back to the car.

If you want more than that you're asking for Level 3 or 4. I want level 3 or 4 and will pay whatever it costs when it becomes available. But there's not much point in complaining that Level 2 cannot do what Level 4 would.

And FWIW, The features that are now being promised for so-called "FSD" would make a difference for about 1% of my driving: It would stop for red lights and stop signs, and it would make turns. Those are about 1%. The other 99% is straight-line driving, mostly within a single lane. And while that's not perfect, as noted above, "FSD" at Level 2 will not be perfect either and will require interventions.

If you have to intervene, it's not full self-driving. It's partial self-driving. Elon was fully aware of this when he first announced FSD as a car that could drive without a driver in it. And that's what he explicitly promised to people who paid for FSD. Now all he's promising if you pay for FSD is a system with defective versions of all the "features," requiring you to be alert and responsible. If there's an accident it's your fault because Tesla is telling you that "feature-complete" FSD won't actually work except occasionally. AP and EAP are still listed as beta features all these years later.

I mean even intervention to avoid potholes would be nice.

 

[Kevy Baby]

It may not be ideal, but I do not find it difficult to disengage autosteer, steer through a spot that EAP would not handle the way I want, and then re-engage autosteer. It's all part of being at Level 2. It cannot handle all situations. We need to be alert, and if you're alert it's a flick of the stalk to take over, and two quick taps to give it back to the car.

Pet peeve: I know it is there for safety, but I really hate the warning chimes that accompany these actions. I know they need to be there (and yes, I have it on Joe Mode), but it interrupts my listening pleasure damnit.

And get off my lawn!

 

[hoeschjp]

It says your research is selective. I think I paid $2000 during the sale a year or so ago. I think Musk later expressed regret but Tesla likes so called demand levers.

They did reverse the $2k sale, going back to $5k after a few weeks. But later in 2019, I think after increasing to $6k, they dropped the price back to $3k. It's kinda been all over the place, and might go down before going up again in the future IMO.

 

[daniel]

I mean even intervention to avoid potholes would be nice.

I can't figure out what you're saying. You can intervene any time you like, as noted in my earlier post. But at Level 2 the car cannot decide when to take over. Once you've disengaged or overridden autosteer you must tell it when you want it to resume.

Pet peeve: I know it is there for safety, but I really hate the warning chimes that accompany these actions. I know they need to be there (and yes, I have it on Joe Mode), but it interrupts my listening pleasure damnit.

And get off my lawn!

The chimes are an unavoidable aspect of Level 2. They won't go away with "Feature-Complete FSD" because that will still be Level 2 and you will engage and disengage it as we do now with AP/EAP. At Level 4 the car will not bother you with noises unless it encounters something it cannot handle. And at Level 5 the car will not bother you except to tell you that you've arrived at your destination.

But we're stuck with the chimes for a very long time to come.

I have absolutely no idea what to make of the lawn comment.

 

[Kevy Baby]

I have absolutely no idea what to make of the lawn comment.

It's me acknowledging that I am being old and curmudgeonly. It's something old grumpy people say.

Watch Gran Torino

 

[PACEMD]

I have absolutely no idea what to make of the lawn comment.

Ok, Boomer.........Get off of my lawn? No? Nothing? Oh flibbidy floop..........why in my day.........Grumpy Old Man....... https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/weekend-update-segment---grumpy-old-man/n9860

 

[daniel]

It's me acknowledging that I am being old and curmudgeonly. It's something old grumpy people say.

Watch Gran Torino

Okay. Thanks.

(But he should have junked that gas guzzler and gotten an electric car. )

 

[Kevy Baby]

(But he should have junked that gas guzzler and gotten an electric car. )

That Gran Torino was an awesome car. There is still a place in the driving world for dinosaur burners (for now).

 

[daniel]

That Gran Torino was an awesome car. There is still a place in the driving world for dinosaur burners (for now).

I was half joking. Whenever that movie was made, EVs probably didn't exist. But I've never been a car enthusiast. I like having a car for transportation, and for much of my life I lived where public transportation didn't exist, so I pretty much needed a car. But gasoline is killing us and stealing the future from the next generation. So, no, there is no place in the world today for stinkers.

I have no idea what set the Gran Torino apart from other stinkers, and I don't particularly care. I'm guessing it was a muscle car (?) which would make it even worse.

 

[EchoDelta]

Worth is relative, but the value to evaluate for worth is not the value of the current features at the current price, it is the cumulative value you’ll get over the lifetime of the vehicle from using the features as they’ll exist at that time.

That equation of value changed the “worth” for me. Is FSD today worth 7k today to me? Totally not. 5k? Meh. But 5 years of FSD at next years’ level of functionality or better is totally worth (to me) the 5k I paid for it.
I also consider myself fortunate that I could put it on the car loan, vs get it on a credit card, but I assume many may be in the same position.