Opinion: FSD, Why you should not buy it.

[azred]

Why does everyone keep talking like it is a non-existent product? It is there and it exists. It is certainly not feature complete, but MANY elements are there and work well (and some not-so-well).

Okay, so the first letter of the acronym is not accurate: it is not FULL Self Driving, but it is a whole lot of self driving (but WLoSD just doesn't have the same ring to it).

It sounds like some are never going to be happy until it is level 5 with zero errors.

Baloney. Tesla stripped some features from old EAP, renamed the stripped down EAP to AP and moved the EAP stripped features to FSD. That is all FSD is today — features stripped from EAP. Meanwhile those buyers who purchased cars as long ago as Fall 2016 and paid for both EAP and FSD have received nothing, zip, zero for the FSD purchase. (I assume customers who leased their EAP/FSD cars three plus years ago never will get any benefit.)

 

[Kevy Baby]

Baloney. Tesla stripped some features from old EAP, renamed the stripped down EAP to AP and moved the EAP stripped features to FSD. That is all FSD is today — features stripped from EAP. Meanwhile those buyers who purchased cars as long ago as Fall 2016 and paid for both EAP and FSD have received nothing, zip, zero for the FSD purchase. (I assume customers who leased their EAP/FSD cars three plus years ago never will get any benefit.)

I'm confused. You say "features were stripped from EAP" and moved to FSD yet you say that those who paid for EAP and FSP received "nothing, zip, zero." What about those features that were "stripped?"

Today, when you spend $10,000* for FSD, you get the following (in addition to TACC and Auto Steer):

*The base cost of the car was raised $3,000 when AP became "standard"​

Full Self-Driving Capability

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.

Coming later this year:

• Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
• Automatic driving on city streets.

If you paid for FSD (and EAP) then you should have (and will have the new features) these features.

I think too many people are confusing Elon saying "Our cars will have full level five FSD" (not an actual quote - just paraphrasing) and then seeing you can pay for EAP/FSD thinking that you would instantly get level five. That's confusing marketing with a purchase agreement.

Sort of like how the Model 3 can get up to 322 miles, as fast as 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, and capable of driving itself, all starting at $39,990.

 

[diplomat33]

I'm confused. You say "features were stripped from EAP" and moved to FSD yet you say that those who paid for EAP and FSP received "nothing, zip, zero." What about those features that were "stripped?"

Today, when you spend $10,000* for FSD, you get the following (in addition to TACC and Auto Steer):

*The base cost of the car was raised $3,000 when AP became "standard"​

If you paid for FSD (and EAP) then you should have (and will have the new features) these features.

I think too many people are confusing Elon saying "Our cars will have full level five FSD" (not an actual quote - just paraphrasing) and then seeing you can pay for EAP/FSD thinking that you would instantly get level five. That's confusing marketing with a purchase agreement.

Sort of like how the Model 3 can get up to 322 miles, as fast as 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, and capable of driving itself, all starting at $39,990.

The issue is that right now, EAP used to give you the same as FSD does today. So if you are an older owner who only paid for EAP, you currently have the same features as new owners who paid for FSD. And if you are an older owner who paid for both EAP and FSD, you are not getting anything extra for having also purchased FSD. Of course, you will get something extra when Tesla releases new FSD features but that has not happened yet. So right now, an owner who paid for both EAP and FSD has not received anything for the FSD part.

 

[daniel]

I'm confused. You say "features were stripped from EAP" and moved to FSD yet you say that those who paid for EAP and FSP received "nothing, zip, zero." What about those features that were "stripped?"

Today, when you spend $10,000* for FSD, you get the following (in addition to TACC and Auto Steer):

*The base cost of the car was raised $3,000 when AP became "standard"​

If you paid for FSD (and EAP) then you should have (and will have the new features) these features.

I think too many people are confusing Elon saying "Our cars will have full level five FSD" (not an actual quote - just paraphrasing) and then seeing you can pay for EAP/FSD thinking that you would instantly get level five. That's confusing marketing with a purchase agreement.

Sort of like how the Model 3 can get up to 322 miles, as fast as 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, and capable of driving itself, all starting at $39,990.

As diplomat33 pointed out, what Tesla did was to stop selling EAP, so if you want the features in EAP you have to buy FSD, which costs several thousand dollars more.

Tesla didn't strip any features from EAP. They just re-named it and raised the price. With the promise of City NoA at Level 2, meaning that the driver must be alert at all times, at some unspecified time in the future.

But a year or two ago, Elon Musk was promising that FSD meant that you could send your car empty to pick up your kids and bring them home, or use it as a robo-taxi with no driver needed. This was the explicit, stated promise. Not only have they downgraded the definition of FSD from No Driver Needed to Alert Driver Required At All Times, but they now require you to pay for FSD if you want the features of EAP. And if you pay for FSD, all you get as of now is EAP. With the code rewrite, it will be at lest a year before FSD has anything that EAP doesn't, other than a more detailed display.

 

[clydeiii]

When we go to neural nets, you stop thinking about things in terms of discreet features and know that nothing is ever certain, just like humans don't have specific and discreet features. FSD at the outside will be city driving but with massive human monitoring. Eventually the brain will get good enough that we can trust it to pick up our kids. We just have to help it along for a while.

Guess what helps with that? Paying for FSD now and assisting it in its learning cycles.

 

[daniel]

When we go to neural nets, you stop thinking about things in terms of discreet features and know that nothing is ever certain, just like humans don't have specific and discreet features. FSD at the outside will be city driving but with massive human monitoring. Eventually the brain will get good enough that we can trust it to pick up our kids. We just have to help it along for a while.

Guess what helps with that? Paying for FSD now and assisting it in its learning cycles.

Tesla is always talking about neural nets, but still talking about features, though mostly in the context of backing away from earlier promises. Though I agree that what we want is not "features" but a car that can drive itself. But I disagree that an interest-free loan backed by empty promises is a good way to help Tesla reach that goal. As I said before, I'll invest (more than I already have) in Tesla's FSD project, but I want something in return: Either interest, or equity. I've got $25K I'd love to give Tesla to help develop FSD. All they need to do is offer me a bond with a 5% coupon or stock representing ownership of a tiny piece of the project.

Tesla made a lot of promises which it has since broken. I support what they're doing, but I'm not giving them money for nothing, and I'm not paying in advance for FSD which probably would never come to my car.

 

[emmz0r]

When we go to neural nets, you stop thinking about things in terms of discreet features and know that nothing is ever certain, just like humans don't have specific and discreet features. FSD at the outside will be city driving but with massive human monitoring. Eventually the brain will get good enough that we can trust it to pick up our kids. We just have to help it along for a while.

Guess what helps with that? Paying for FSD now and assisting it in its learning cycles.

We could get it for free, and then we would help Tesla for free. That would help them a lot probably.

 

[GManMaple]

FSD is a sound investment from my perspective. When it arrives, albeit in bits and pieces, over time then I'll get it automatically vs. having to wait for either a hardware and/or firmware upgrade.

 

[daniel]

FSD is a sound investment from my perspective. When it arrives, albeit in bits and pieces, over time then I'll get it automatically vs. having to wait for either a hardware and/or firmware upgrade.

That assumes that Tesla is the first company to achieve FSD. If another company gets there first and starts selling fully autonomous cars before Tesla, that investment will be worthless. Or you'll have to wait another year or two or five after other people are driving autonomous cars because you're stuck with the sunk cost of having paid in advance for the Tesla version that's not yet available.

There's no guarantee that Tesla will be first to market with a self-driving car.

 

[clydeiii]

That assumes that Tesla is the first company to achieve FSD. If another company gets there first and starts selling fully autonomous cars before Tesla, that investment will be worthless. Or you'll have to wait another year or two or five after other people are driving autonomous cars because you're stuck with the sunk cost of having paid in advance for the Tesla version that's not yet available.

There's no guarantee that Tesla will be first to market with a self-driving car.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. But giving Tesla 7000 bucks certainly can't hurt.

 

[Kevy Baby]

That assumes that Tesla is the first company to achieve FSD. If another company gets there first and starts selling fully autonomous cars before Tesla, that investment will be worthless. Or you'll have to wait another year or two or five after other people are driving autonomous cars because you're stuck with the sunk cost of having paid in advance for the Tesla version that's not yet available.

If one plays the odds, Tesla is a safe bet to be if not the first, one of the first with FSD. What is going to get the world to full level 5 is experience and Tesla BY FAR has the most miles of data and experience.

Apple was far from the first to market with a smart phone, but hands down they were the first one to get it right and were the undisputed market leader for many years.

Besides, FSD is not the only reason I chose to go with Tesla - far from it.

 

[clydeiii]

Besides, FSD is not the only reason I chose to go with Tesla - far from it.

FSD was the main reason I bought a Tesla, though I want the world to move to EVs too, so that helped. But I can't think of a single other car I can purchase today that can be upgraded in the future to enable self-driving. Please tell me what my other options are.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Please tell me what my other options are.

Why would I do your research for you? I'm happy with what I got.

 

[kkillebrew]

I bought mine with the car and I am glad I did. On the highway FSD makes the drive safer, more fun, and eliminates driving fatigue. To me this all adds up to a better quality of life, and it just may or may have already saved my life. If that's not worth $7k to you, then don't buy it.

 

[vinnie97]

The stretch of highway I drive does not make EAP enjoyable, which can't read the lane boundaries as I enter from the onramp such that it weaves back and forth (I guess this qualifies as more fun?) as it scans for the painted lanes (there is lots of "noise" on the pavement/asphalt from previous maintenance with nothing being done to clean it up, so part of the blame goes to DOT), doesn't properly anticipate lanes ending or dividing into 2, hogs the passing lane, etc. It's close to a dumpster fire for me.

 

[daniel]

Nothing in life is guaranteed. But giving Tesla 7000 bucks certainly can't hurt.

It can't hurt Tesla. It can hurt someone who can't afford $7,000 without getting something of real value for it. But why stop at $7,000? Why not give then $100,000? Heck, why not give them $1,000,000? That might get them to FSD even sooner. It would certainly show them that you're serious.

If one plays the odds, Tesla is a safe bet to be if not the first, one of the first with FSD. What is going to get the world to full level 5 is experience and Tesla BY FAR has the most miles of data and experience.

There are no safe bets. And Tesla has arbitrarily chosen to cripple itself by insisting on using cameras alone, and only eight of those.

I bought mine with the car and I am glad I did. On the highway FSD makes the drive safer, more fun, and eliminates driving fatigue. To me this all adds up to a better quality of life, and it just may or may have already saved my life. If that's not worth $7k to you, then don't buy it.

You don't have FSD. You have EAP, which Tesla in its wisdom decided to quit selling by itself, and make you pay for FSD (which does not exist, and won't for at least several years) if you want EAP.

I bought EAP with mine and I think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I think Tesla might end up being the first with FSD, but I'm not going to lock myself in by buying it before it exists. Tesla has plenty of money of mine, which I was happy to give them because they gave me something in return: A car, some equity in the company, some interest-paying bonds, and then another car. All good sound purchases. And they can have some more money of mine when they offer something of value in return. FSD on a car with 8 cameras and no lidar is a pig in a poke.

Unfortunately, Tesla has chosen to obfuscate the matter by changing the definition of FSD. For someone who has EAP, buying FSD is paying for absolutely nothing but a promise. For someone buying a car today, you have to pay for the worthless promise of a self-driving car "some day" if you want to get the features of EAP. When I bought mine, you had to buy EAP just to get the basic AP. Now the basic AP comes in all Teslas but you can't buy EAP without paying for FSD.

It's just plain dishonest to say that anything short of Level 5 is Full Self Driving, and Tesla has as good as admitted that that is years away, yet they're still selling the promise, and requiring you to buy that promise if you want EAP.

 

[Atreyu]

I bought it only because it jumped from $5000 to $7000 and wasted to lock in a rate before it went up again.
I never use the summon feature. I use the auto lane change, and I’ve used parallel parking once, which is a treasure in even my wife’s 2014 Jeep Cherokee.

In the month I’ve had it, after 2 updates, the autopilot has deteriorated I feel like.

It phantom brakes, especially when arriving a toll area, (I’m talking 2 miles before the booth) or when it enters a lane for an off ramp. I’m surprised I haven’t been rear ended yet.

I don’t know why it has to hug the right lane when an on ramp merges onto the highway. Countless times it’ll be in the center and then it’ll dart over to the right side of the lane where the on-ramp merges with the lane (SF people, I’m talking about 101S past the city towards the airport after cow palace.)

When it goes around a turn where there is traffic, it gets incredibly tight to the right line, to the point if the guy to my right impedes my lane a tiny bit, I’ll get hit. Then there’s the ping ponging trucks into my lane.

For $7000, if I knew I would’ve got this plus a party trick, I wouldn’t have paid the $7000.

 

[linux-works]

any time there is a right lane that enters the highway, its a wide lane that narrows (2 lane merge). AP has problems with that and wants to be centered when it SHOULD just hug the left line and follow that. that's the thing that should guide it, not 'centering'.

and yet, in some cases, centering might be better.

its this 'it all depends' that continues to make me think that level 5 is a long long way off and even a perfected level 2 is still years away.

I wish I could put in manual geo-based (gps) work-arounds for the frequent roads I take. when those 2 lanes merge on rt237, for me, I'd like my car to do what *I* tell it to do, and then LEARN IT so that it won't fight with me next time I take that same road.

is it asking too much to have it learn from ME and remember?

that feature is not there. hope it comes, someday.

 

[daniel]

... is it asking too much to have it learn from ME and remember?

With the current computer, probably. Possibly when they get to HW 5 they'll be able to add a Learn mode. I just remember the places I have to disengage EAP. I also disengage when I see a vehicle approaching from the other direction too close to the center line, and on very curvy roads. Things like this are why it's Level 2.

 

[clydeiii]

Why would I do your research for you? I'm happy with what I got.

I wasn't really asking you, I was asking Daniel, who seems to think there's a possibility some other car can get there faster. Just wondering, in his opinion, what that car is.