Opinion: Tesla should partner with another OEM for NACS or be forced into CCS someday.

CCS has been adopted, however shortsightedly, as the charging standard for North America. As all other manufacturers move forward with CCS ports in random, non-optimal locations over the years, Tesla may some day be forced to have CCS charging ports in their vehicles just as has happened in Europe.

We can hope and insist and be as certain as we'd like that this won't happen, but as legacy automakers and government all team up...there won't be much Tesla can do if a line is drawn in the sand and laws are passed.

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug. There would be a benefit to Tesla in terms of revenue generated from SC's, and a *massive* benefit to any OEM that can then claim full access to the largest, best, most reliable charging network in existence.

I don't see there being any HUGE downside to Tesla....no one manufacturer really has enough EV's on the road to move the needle all that much in terms of significantly clogging up SC locations. The upside for a Legacy OEM would be massive, and would most likely eliminate the possibility of the big three teaming up with government and forcing Tesla' hand with regards to CCS.

It's also easy enough to just toss a CCS adapter in with each car sold or make one available at low cost if desired. Tesla always has the option of excluding their busiest locations where extra traffic might cause congestion.

This would also support Tesla's objective of electrifying the world. I don't think this would significantly affect Tesla's sales, especially considering the limited production from Legacies for the foreseeable future. They could even team up with a smaller competitor like Mercedes or BMW.

Thoughts?

"Charging Tesla Model S" by jeffcooper86 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[Genie]

How could Tesla be forced to switch to CCS in US?

 

[CapsEngineer]

How could Tesla be forced to switch to CCS in US?

There are these things called lawmakers and bureaucrats that. by virtue of working in DC, know more than us mere mortals. They could decide that Tesla was wrong all along and that CCS is the one true charging standard and enforce either via fiat or through controlling money for the companies.

 

[ucmndd]

How could Tesla be forced to switch to CCS in US?

The same way they were forced to do so in Europe. Legislatively. Not that I think that’s particularly likely in “Murica, but it’s certainly possible.

RE “NACS” - the fight is over. Tesla lost, right or wrong. No other manufacturer has any interest in or motivation to adopt a “standard” unilaterally controlled by Tesla.

 

[moa999]

Well there is Aptera.
But it wouldn't surprise me if a new entrant (say one of the Chinese manuf or Vinfast) tried to have both CCS1 and NACS as a point of difference.

Of course - not just the connector port - Tesla would need to enable the Superchargers to charge in some way

 

[FLRifleman]

Not going to happen. That ship sailed a long time ago and has already arrived. In addition to their proprietary connector, Tesla clearly designed the Supercharger stations to be tailored to their vehicles only, without future planning for open use. That's evidenced by the station location being on the front vs side, and the short cables. A significant number of CCS stations will be installed over the next few years.

 

[Earl]

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug.

Tesla did, early on. The big ICE makers simply scoffed at Tesla with made-up realities. Remember they preferred to crush EVs, not make them.
I was working for a company that had an automotive supply branch back then. Often, when I spoke with our CEO (who knew I had an early Tesla) he would relay the word from our automobile OEM customers about how much of a disaster Tesla's Supercharger network was and how Tesla was begging for someone big to come rescue them.

Actually, from the very beginning, Tesla was on the CCS committee and they were pushing for a clean design similar to NACS but the rest of the committee (all ICE makers) wouldn't hear of it.

You'll find a lot of shills on this forum, with very early joining dates, who will fill this thread with their pro CCS/anti Tesla nonsense. I strongly suspect many of them are paid by Tesla's competitors, while others just like being contrarian.

Maybe Tesla will eventually start equipping US cars with CCS but, I suspect, the reality is that some better option will come along which all parties will adopt. It will probably be like back in the 1980's, Apple had their own, clean printer interface connector while PCs used the horrible Centronix connector, eventually, they all standardized on the better USB standard.

 

[TheHippo]

The ship has sailed.

Tesla should have done it a long time ago.

 

[FOOLSLFDRVNG]

The same way they were forced to do so in Europe. Legislatively. Not that I think that’s particularly likely in “Murica, but it’s certainly possible.

RE “NACS” - the fight is over. Tesla lost, right or wrong. No other manufacturer has any interest in or motivation to adopt a “standard” unilaterally controlled by Tesla.

Tesla “Hardcore” legal team will appeal it over and over and delay it with the unlimited budget they have. Newsom and Tesla are now buddies, so that is at least a large amount of political influence, not to mention other states with factory jobs in Texas, Nevada and New York.

With so many Tesla Superchargers, there’s no need for Tesla vehicles to use Non Tesla chargers besides a J1772 sitting at a hotel overnight. My wife has an ID4 and would not recommend chargers outside of Tesla unless free which comes with case for 3 years. The charging experience has been lousy. I can’t even get above 70kwh charge speed in 3 different 150kw charger locations for Electrify America.

The Magic Dock is already the best solution with no compromise to any car company. To Tesla owners maybe.

If Tesla adopted CCS that would limit charging speeds to 350kwh, while NACS is rated up to 500 to 1000kwh depending on sources. Tesla is usually 2 steps ahead.

 

[Evpowerdan]

NACS - this would have been a lot easier before VW enter the USA with their chargers and all other MFG’s are on the. CS standard. Tesla has the easiest and most reliable system. The rest is laughable, as all the federal money goes to building stations and not maintenance nor uptime. It’s a debacle that will hinder mass adoption.

Agree with others, Tesla should have pushed for their plug to be used and made it readily available to all - open source. One thing is for sure, CCS or Tesla current plug most likely will go through new designs as batteries and Charging requirements change.

 

[Bubbabighatt]

CCS has been adopted, however shortsightedly, as the charging standard for North America. As all other manufacturers move forward with CCS ports in random, non-optimal locations over the years, Tesla may some day be forced to have CCS charging ports in their vehicles just as has happened in Europe.

We can hope and insist and be as certain as we'd like that this won't happen, but as legacy automakers and government all team up...there won't be much Tesla can do if a line is drawn in the sand and laws are passed.

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug. There would be a benefit to Tesla in terms of revenue generated from SC's, and a *massive* benefit to any OEM that can then claim full access to the largest, best, most reliable charging network in existence.

I don't see there being any HUGE downside to Tesla....no one manufacturer really has enough EV's on the road to move the needle all that much in terms of significantly clogging up SC locations. The upside for a Legacy OEM would be massive, and would most likely eliminate the possibility of the big three teaming up with government and forcing Tesla' hand with regards to CCS.

It's also easy enough to just toss a CCS adapter in with each car sold or make one available at low cost if desired. Tesla always has the option of excluding their busiest locations where extra traffic might cause congestion.

This would also support Tesla's objective of electrifying the world. I don't think this would significantly affect Tesla's sales, especially considering the limited production from Legacies for the foreseeable future. They could even team up with a smaller competitor like Mercedes or BMW.

Thoughts?


View attachment 915868
"Charging Tesla Model S" by jeffcooper86 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

I'm in California and have had the misfortune of having to use a SC in the Bay Area. Many times I've had to wait to charge and allowing other EV's would only exacerbate the situation. There's already arguments/fights with people cutting in line. (You know, it's never clear where the line is so people tend to wait in the wrong spot and then... trouble) One of the advantages of the SC is the quick charge, it does not good if we have to wait to get that charge.

 

[simple_life]

Aesthetically speaking, I like NACS changer way more than CCS

 

[MP3Mike]

The same way they were forced to do so in Europe.

But they weren't forced to in Europe. They only would have had to have CCS connectors at new Superchargers.

But there it worked out since they were already using the standard level 2 connector there and only had to add the DC pins under it. It didn't cause any compatibility problems with there existing AC charging infrastructure like switching in NA would.

 

[brkaus]

Tesla will use the magic dock and redesign the pedestal to have a longer cord and all will be fine in the world.

The ccs adapter fir the Tesla is already pretty cheap.

 

[BigNick]

Tesla has already redesigned the charge port door on the Model S to accommodate a bulky CCS plug. It's much more like the Model 3's door compared to the original, sleeker design.

 

[PCTAZRichard]

I don't see anyone forcing Tesla to change the current SC network connectors to CCS, but I can see that being tied to new ones built with federal money. Which is kind of strange if you consider the majority of cars out there have the Tesla connector, why not make them adapt to Tesla? Also- can Tesla get federal $$ to add CCS to some of the current pedestals like they have been doing? Or are the new magic dock ones brand new? Either way they're not being forced.

Sadly I agree with the 'that ship has sailed' comments about the Tesla plug being the default. VHS vs Beta all over again? Especially if the Tesla connector is good for speeds > 350kW and CCS is not (I don't know this as a fact but it was mentioned).

Besides the connector there's also the port placement on the car. Seems like that being on the driver's side rear is pretty intuitive after having that arrangement on ICE vehicles. This means longer connector cables and standardized parking etiquette. THAT is gonna be a PITA for a while.

If the argument is - more manufacturers are using CCS than the NACS that's flawed. There are certainly 3x as many EVs with NACS on the road NOW vs the CCS. Right?

 

[doug]

You'll find a lot of shills on this forum, with very early joining dates, who will fill this thread with their pro CCS/anti Tesla nonsense. I strongly suspect many of them are paid by Tesla's competitors, while others just like being contrarian.

To whom are you referring? I was there when the public first saw the that connector. It was labeled something like the TSL2 connector (as opposed to the TSL1 connector on the original Roadster).

My recollection is that people on this forum were unhappy with "yet another connector standard". Europeans in particular were unhappy that it didn't support 3 phase AC charging, since they were already experienced with limited home charging rates on the Roadster due to load imbalance on single phase.
I was hoping that they'd just use a beefed up version of the versatile Mennekes connector so we could have single a worldwide standard.


At any rate, as it stands now, the Tesla connector is the superior standard for North America. But I fear it's basically Betamax versus VHS, and Tesla is Sony.

 

[MP3Mike]

Also- can Tesla get federal $$ to add CCS to some of the current pedestals like they have been doing?

Yes, they could get NEVI money to add MagicDocks to current Superchargers.

But just adding the MagicDock, like they have done so far, won't qualify:

• They would have to submit a response to the RFP from each state/territory to try to get money.
  • Each state/territory may have requirements beyond the federal NEVI requirements.
  • No state has issued the RFP yet.
  • The first NEVI funds are likely to be granted this fall. With construction starting next year.
• Are the locations NEVI approved? (Within 1 mile of an AFC and being ~50 miles from the next closest NEVI AFC site.)
• It requires that you download the Tesla app, that is not allowed.
• It requires you to create a Tesla account, that is not allowed.
• It doesn't allow you to activate/pay through a third-party provider. (Think ChargePoint, Blink, Ford Oval app, etc.)
• It doesn't allow you to pay via a dumb phone.
• It likely can't meet the minimum power requirements, minimum of 150kW on any NEVI funded stall anytime a car asks for it.
  • A normal full V3 site can only provide ~83kW per stall.
• Tesla hasn't opened their real-time stall usage data to all third-parties that ask for it.
• Some states/territories may require on-site physical credit card readers.
• Some states/territories may require on-site physical displays.
• Plug&Charge support is required by 2024. (That would mean that there has to be a physical button on the MagicDock to release the CCS adapter, no app could be used, as that wouldn't be Plug&Charge.)
• MagicDock may not qualify for NEVI funding as it isn't really a permanently attached CCS Type 1 connector.

 

[Electric700]

Aesthetically speaking, I like NACS changer way more than CCS

Yes and functionally it's better plus easier for people to use, including some people who might have difficulty handling the huge CCS plug. I think we need to request that the other automakers adopt the NACS standard.

Tesla opened its patents and may be they need to create a United Charging Standards group or something, with voting members and offer NACS as the initial standard. But core principles of this new UCS would be:

1. Safety (NACS has proven to be reliable and safe to use).
2. Cooling included when needed (NACS also supports this).
3. Smallest plug as possible (e.g. NACS).
4. Easy to use and start charging as quickly as possible (NACS).
5. Charging session completes as quickly as possible, supporting 950+ kW charging.
6. Customers and the EV manufacturers could participate.
7. New standards including wireless charging could be covered.
8. Voting would be by secured verified popular vote (for integrity) to adopt a standard adhering to the above principles.

It's apparent that NACS would win here. I am also glad that Tesla is installing the CCS adapters on the Superchargers. This way people can charge both ways.

 

[TesLEEZ]

4. Easy to use and start charging as quickly as possible (NACS).

Point number 4 could be implemented on CCS as well. It would require cars to have a universal identification protocol. This iD number could then be tied to a universal payment app when you could then authorize to either require a prompt or automatically bill your account when your phone is in proximity to the charge station and you plug in. Requiring the phone to be nearby would help elminate iD theft so thieves couldn't program their own iD number into the charge protocol to get free charging.

But even without the automatic Payment and charge. Tesla's experience is still better using the app to pay. The touchscreen and payment system on charge stations is another point of failure. Granted, there are still people out there which own cars, but not smartphones.