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Opinions on Supercharging

Discussion in 'Florida' started by Racerx22b, May 4, 2017.

  1. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    #1 Racerx22b, May 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2017
    Moderator's Note: This thread is to discuss various opinions, philosophies, policies and practices related to Supercharging, with emphasis on Florida. Much of the posting here were snipped from the Anyone wondering about the 15 new superchargers in Florida? thread.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    The problem I find with the mentality of many Tesla owners is that they look at it through "Tesla Eyes". You should look at it from a ICE owners eyes. With an ICE, you can stop practically anywhere in this country and within 10mins or less be all set for another 300miles (give or take). If there is going to be more than 5 miles without a gas station they even place HUGE signs on the road warning motorists of this. This is how much range anxiety exists out there. The bridge from Tampa to St Pete even has a sign warning you that there is no gas available on the bridge. Really, there isn't a gas stop in the middle of a freaking bridge? They really need a sign for that?

    If you're trying to move an ICE owner to an EV owner it needs to make sense. Getting them to accept they must stop for double or more the time to "top off" enough to get to their next charger is possible (but challenging) but if you also tell them they need to drive 10 or more miles out of their way that will likely result in them walking away. This is my point here. See below.

    Jacksonville to Tampa is 224 miles via I-4. FYI, I can't make this distance in my Model X P100D unless I really baby it.

    Adding a stop in Port Orange makes this trip 234 miles. A 10 mile diversion.

    Adding a stop in Brandon makes this trip 231 miles. A 7 mile diversion (plus using an extra toll road).

    If you were in an ICE car would you drive 7 or 10 miles out of your way for gas? No way.

    If you were passing through Palatka and in need of a charge would you make a 50 mile side trip to Jacksonville? No.

    This is why chargers need to be in high density Tesla owner areas as well in the not so often visited areas. People coming from an ICE need to feel warm and fuzzy about traveling distance. With chargers in remote areas this gives you this feeling. Do they need to be at the top of the priority list? No. But they need to be on the list. Besides the "how far does it go" and "how long does it take to charge" the question I most often I get is where are the chargers if I need to go to (insert wherever location here). Inevitably they come up with a destination where there isn't a charger within 100 miles and then they dismiss the whole idea.

    As an owner of 2 Teslas I don't think they are absolutely needed and sorta agree with you. I accept that my travel will take longer and require diversions off my preferred route. But I (and most of us on here) are not the norm. This is why chargers need to be spread out more. The chargers at Yeehaw seem ridiculous to me. You have to exit the turnpike to use them and pay extra in tolls in the process. Stupid. I would never in a million years exit there to use them over the Fort Drum chargers.
     
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  2. kort677

    kort677 Active Member

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    this is the life of an early adapter, if you are expecting SpCs to become as ubiquitous as gas stations any time soon maybe you bought a car that is wrong for your particular needs.
    as for your travelling comps, I won't say that you are wrong but I have done similar trips in my S90d by just adhering to the speed limits. I even did the trip from cars and coffee in St.Pete to my home in my s85 on a single charge, a ride of about 250 miles.
     
  3. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin President, Florida Tesla Enthusiasts

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    #3 Larry Chanin, May 4, 2017
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
    You make some excellent points.

    When I discuss Tesla ownership with the public, I tell them that driving a Model S is better than driving in an ICE as measured in MOST important metrics, but not all.

    Below is a list of some factors involved in selecting a new vehicle. In my opinion, not every item listed below carries equal weigh for most of the driving public. For instance, range anxiety continues to be a big deal, but if your car happens to have twice the range needed to get to the next refueling station, then the perceived imperative of having a car with a range of 500 miles is greatly mitigated. This is especially true when you consider that the range of most of our bladders is usually less than 300 miles. ;-)

    1. Upfront cost = Tesla is competitively priced (usually less than) comparable luxury cars in its class.
    2. Performance = Much better than any production car on the road in terms of acceleration.
    3. Economy = Much better than any car in its class, or even most cars in other classes.
    4. Safety = Much better than any vehicle on the road due to its fundamentally safer construction. (Notwithstanding Consumer Reports recent safety downgrade regarding emergency braking.)
    5. Environmental Impact = Teslas are zero emission vehicles.
    6. Range = ICE vehicles in Tesla’s class have the advantage.
    7. Speed of refueling = Currently ICE vehicles have the advantage. (However, battery swapping, if implemented at congested Supercharger Stations, would be twice as fast as ICE refueling.)
    8. Availability of refueling stations = ICE vehicles have the advantage. I tell prospective Tesla owners that long-distance travel does require a bit more planning than in an ICE vehicle at this time.
    If the last three items are deal-killers for prospective Tesla owners, then they would not be a good fit for EV ownership at this time.

    Getting back to your concern about how to allocate stations within the Supercharger Network, if you were Tesla and planned to be producing at a rate of 500,000 EV/year by the end of 2018, would you continue to concentrate on the major highways with some scattered urban locations, or would you switch your strategy and place added emphasis on filling the holes in “the not so often visited areas”?

    If you do the latter, it's true that you may attract a few new owners that live in or travel to remote areas, but you would be taking resources from the majority of drivers that take long trips along major highways and through urban areas. With the advent of hundreds of thousands of new Model 3 drivers, shifting too many resource to remote areas would not be prudent. Adding a few remote areas, where there is low-hanging fruit, should be addressed in a gradual roll-out.

    Larry
     
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  4. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    The biggest concern I have with the impending Model 3 launch is the lack of service centers. I think that should be an even bigger priority than increasing the superchargers. Luckily in Palm Beach there is not much of a wait time but those days are surely numbered.

    I would say we need to triple or quadruple (maybe even more) the # of service centers in FL pronto.

    Jason
     
  5. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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  6. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    I swear I am typing in a different language. I am not trying to be rude here but please point out where I said "I expect Tesla needs to place a Supercharger in every small town in America". I am simply pointing out that only placing chargers along Interstates/Toll Ways and densely populated urban areas will limit their sales potential. They will need to place chargers in some (not all) small towns along secondary routes in order for owners of ICE vehicles to overcome any range anxiety. These should not be the priority right now but they should be in their plans for the coming years.

    If you think everyone who travels in their personal vehicle has a set route for every single day of travel you are delusional. The fact is, sometimes people like to just wander and explore new areas. Generally these areas are not on major Interstates as Interstate roads typically are boring. Also, what if the interstate you're traveling on gets shut down? Wouldn't it be nice to have an alternate supercharger on a secondary road available? With an ICE vehicle you have the luxury of just taking whatever road you feel like without having to constantly remember how far away you are from a charger. Placing chargers sporadically on secondary routes will provide Tesla owners a similar (but not the same) luxury. Whether you like it or not people are accustomed to just having everything at their fingertips. Maybe someday this will be the case for Superchargers but probably not in my lifetime. In the meantime, they need to make some progress towards fast charging away from major interstates to help subside (not eliminate) the fear of not finding a charger that many ICE owners have. Owning a Tesla will never be the same as owning an ICE (from a "fueling up" POV) but that obstacle can be mitigated by having chargers in locations other than major interstates and urban areas.

    Please remember I am speaking from the POV of an ICE owner. As a Tesla owner x 2 I accept all that comes with owning a Tesla and I have no regrets or issues with my purchase decision. But as a sizable share holder and believer in what Tesla is trying to accomplish, I certainly have a vested interest in them doing the smart thing towards growing their brand. For the most part, they have. But they have certainly made some bonehead moves as well.
     
  7. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    Facepalm.

    Ok.

    As you wish.
     
  8. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    Another thing to remember with Superchargers... They will now be turning into revenue generators for Tesla. The burden of powering all of the Tesla fleet entirely for free will be a thing of the past (for cars bought after Jan 15th and who knows what the Model 3 will come with).

    The profit will likely be minimal but it's still profit.
     
  9. kort677

    kort677 Active Member

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    I don't think that there is any profit to be by tesla there because they are selling the power for what they pay for it. the charges are to dissuade those from using the SpCs as their primary source of charging.
     
  10. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin President, Florida Tesla Enthusiasts

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    The Supercharger fees, including the Idle fees, are designed to help manage poor behaviors. People do stupid things when things are "free". The Supercharger fees might pay for the energy costs, but in addition Supercharger Stations are hit with huge demand charges which are not covered by the current fee structure. It is true that Tesla won't be losing as much, but they are still not breaking even let along making a profit.

    Larry
     
  11. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    The fees are designed to manage bad behaviors?? Yes, the idle fees are. But not for the people who need to supercharge more than 400kwh a year. I don't think Tesla is trying to curb the bad behavior of traveling long distance in your car. That is the main reason why many people bought the car.

    Plus you don't know what the supercharger plan is for the Model 3. Maybe it'll come with no included supercharging. Just "access" to them. Model 3s will outnumber all previous Tesla models before you know it and of those owners will will dictate the direction Tesla moves in the future. Not people like us.
     
  12. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin President, Florida Tesla Enthusiasts

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    #12 Larry Chanin, May 7, 2017
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    Yes, we both agree that the idle fees are definitely to curb bad behavior. Regarding regular Supercharging, I also agree that my term "bad behavior" was not entirely appropriate for everyone as my statement may have erroneously conveyed. Nevertheless, it is true that some people who believe that Supercharging is "free" don't always do the "right" thing. So to be more specific, those locals who are not taking long trips and regularly use a Supercharger to top off rather than charge at home simply to save money, might be dissuaded from continuing that dubious practice since after they use their 400 kW it will be slightly more expensive to charge at a Supercharger than at home. In addition, charging at home is frankly more convenient than driving to a Supercharger.

    One thing we can be sure about regarding the Model 3s is that they won't have unlimited free Supercharging. My guess is that it will be exactly the same as newly purchased Model S and Xs, free Supercharging for 400 kWh. Again the fee will help modify some less than ideal behaviors. Once a Model 3 owner hits their free limit, again it will be slightly cheaper and more convenient to charge at home than at a Supercharger Station. Model 3 drivers taking long trips will of course continue to charge at Supercharger Stations, but those locals who really don't need a Supercharger to get home will be induced to charge at home because will be cheaper.

    Larry
     
  13. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    The super chargers aren't going to be a profit center as currently implemented. Revenues may only keep pace with the expense of the electricity consumed. Profits?!
     
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  14. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    Yeah. And service centers were never supposed to be profitable. Have you seen what they charge for 4 tires?

    "Currently implemented". Yes, I agree. But if you've followed Tesla for more than about 5mins what is currently implemented will be different at any moment. If you think their long term business model is to provide "juice" to its entire fleet at any kind of cost to them you may want to think again. That is not sustainable.
     
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  15. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin President, Florida Tesla Enthusiasts

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    You seem to be changing your original premise. Initially you stated that Tesla is currently making a small profit with its Supercharger fees. That is not correct. Now you appear to be saying that eventually Tesla will be making a profit. That of course is possible. Time will tell whether they continue to "bake in" the cost of Supercharging into the cost of their vehicles, or if they switch to a different business model, or even hand over the Supercharger Network to a for-profit third party.

    Larry
     
  16. Racerx22b

    Racerx22b Member

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    I never said they are currently making a profit...

    I said "They will now be turning into revenue generators for Tesla. The burden of powering all of the Tesla fleet entirely for free will be a thing of the past".

    Turning into.... implies in the future

    Will be a thing of the past... Implies that eventually (at some point in the future) it will be a thing of the past.

    My position remains the same. Hooking customers into a long term continual arrangement (or subscription) that requires a steady stream of $$ is a great business model. I don't fault them.

    I think this element of the Tesla business model is severely underestimated. I don't think Model 3s will come with any included supercharging (only access) or they'll offer a set amount of charging as an upgrade when configuring your car that is at a discount from the going rate. It will always need to be offered at a significantly reduced price compared to gas to entice buyers (as long as ICE cars are still available) but I can totally see Tesla at some point adding a fixed % above the cost of electric wherever the charger is located. I mean what is stopping them?

    This is all my opinion. I have no inside knowledge but that business model makes total sense. At least to me.

    Does that mean I like it? No. Do I want this to happen? No. Free go go juice for life is awesome but just like most things free in life they go away.
     
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  17. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    Ok guy.
     
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  18. realvvk

    realvvk Member

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    Reading your discussion with interest, I just realized that on a recent trip from Philly to Ft Myers I did not have my usual "fuel anxiety." Since we usually drive at night, at least most of the way, I usually worry about finding an open (and safe) gas station when I am in rural areas. In fact, it is a source of major anxiety for me when I drive on rural highways (not interstates.) With supercharger stops well known and planned for in advance, that anxiety is gone. I just realized it thanks to your statement.
     
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  19. viperboy

    viperboy Member

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    @mods can we remove the OT discussion and get back to where we want / expect SCs in Florida?
     
  20. GreenT

    GreenT Member

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    What's your point Larry? I think we get the OP's point?
     

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