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Options / Pricing gripes for 160 mile version

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by jfeister, Dec 20, 2011.

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  1. jfeister

    jfeister Member

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    Just saw Tesla has the long awaited options info for the Model S on their website.

    A couple things I found very disappointing about the 160 mile version:

    0 to 60 in 6.5

    I was always under the impression the 0 to 60 would be 5.6. Granted, they never specifically stated this, but they said 0 to 60 was 5.6 and gave no indication it depended on battery size. Given the fact that they are taking people's (refundable) money and not clearly explaining this I feel is deceptive and a poor way to treat your prospective customers.

    No supercharging

    To me this is huge. You will never be able to go on a trip with a 160 mile version. Seriously guys?

    That, and you have to pay $3750 if you want turn by turn navigation on your giant touchscreen. Not cool Tesla. Not cool.
     
  2. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    There's been a lot of discussion on this in these forums, and it's long been speculated that the 0-60 on the base pack might be slower than 5.6, for unavoidable technical reasons (if you draw too much current, with smaller capacity packs that's a higher C (charge/discharge) rate, which degrades the battery significantly faster. I don't think that's a surprise to many of us frequent forum visitors.

    Keep in mind they also said "300 mi range", which also isn't in the base package. Every car commercial you see advertises with additional packages (often times fully loaded), so how can you not expect the same thing here? Look for the "optional features shown" fine print at the bottom of most car commercials :).

    As far as supercharging, that's due to the same technical limitations as the 0-60 time.

    Now as far as the $3750 for the turn-by-turn, I'd agree with you there...but everything else seems in line with many people's expectations.
     
  3. Citizen-T

    Citizen-T Active Member

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    We here on the forums have long speculated that the performance would depend on battery size. The physics just don't work out to allow the 160mi pack to put out as much power as the 300mi pack. Agree, Tesla should have made this more clear, but this was a well expected outcome. Still, 6.5s is no slouch.

    No supercharging is a little bit more of a surprise. Best explanation that I've heard so far is that this will mean that they don't need to install charging stations every 100 miles. Remember, 160mi is at 55mph. If you were planning on taking this car on road trips then 160mi option probably wasn't the right one for you anyway, because at 70mph, you might be much closer to 120mi or less. Who wants to stop every 1.5 hours on a long trip?

    No, the 160mi pack is definitely a "around town" and small trip car. Supercharging isn't going to magically turn this guy into a big road trip vehicle.
     
  4. jimbakker666

    jimbakker666 Member

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    Yeah this is a little frustrating for me with the 160 model. I'm not sure what more value this model provides over the Leaf at nearly $15k more? Similar mileage given the rating @ 55mph (which is actually lower than the freeway speed limit in CA), no super-charging, and automatic keyless entry will cost $3500 more? Should I assume that this means I'll have to stick my key in the door to enter my $60k vehicle?

    I don't know guys, this vehicle doesn't really seem all that accessible to the middle-class now (something that Elon alluded to in an interview a couple months ago about current reservation holders). I can justify the purchase at $50k, if it provides me something substantial over it's competition. What would that be, exactly?
     
  5. jfeister

    jfeister Member

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    I appreciate you guys were smart enough to deduce the technical limitations of a 40 kwhr battery, but a customer shouldn't need a degree in electrical engineering to know what they are plunking $5,000 for. Yes, you can get the refund I realize. I just don't think it's a good way to treat your customers.
     
  6. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    I imagine that 100 years ago, people were going through the same questions about gas cars...the price you pay for adopting fresh technology...it sometimes requires a little research :).

    That's why this forum's here...that's why you have a customer advocate at Tesla. No?
     
  7. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    As was stated, Tesla has been truthful in what was POSSIBLE in the Model S (like 300 mile range). You can't expect to get the most basic car and get all the features. This is how it works in just about all companies. Also, like I've said in other threads, the 160 mile pack is NOT the car to get if you plan to drive long distances.

    Agreed on the nav though, the hardware is there already.
     
  8. jfeister

    jfeister Member

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    Jim, you said it better than I could. I'm very concerned a lot of customers will see a lack of supercharging and think they are getting an upgraded leaf. I think it's a big mistake and could result in quite a few cancellations. How do others who have reserved a 160 mile version feel about this?
     
  9. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Well, for one, way more interior room - if that sort of thing is important to you.
     
  10. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    You won't get 160 miles out of a leaf @55mph. No way. Maybe close to 100 miles.
    The leaf is also very ugly, can rust, has a pathetic battery warranty, cheap interior, I can go on and on.
     
  11. goyogi

    goyogi Member

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    I think the automatic keyless entry is the type that senses when you are near and the doors automatically unlock and the door handles reveal themselves. I think without it it's like most cars where you tap a button on your remote and the doors unlock. I'm pleasantly surprised about the pricing especially the sport version.
     
  12. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    QC allows various other options - other than just long road trips. You can go to a place 100 miles away - get a QC before heading back home. QC is great from all those one day trips. It would also allow me to drive to places like Portland or Vancouver from Seattle. This is what I plan to do even with the smaller Leaf once the CHAdeMO stations go online.

    QC is a must for wide spread use of EVs until the battery prices come down.
     
  13. Citizen-T

    Citizen-T Active Member

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    Yea, remember the leaf's 100mi rating is also at 55mph. As mentioned the 160mi Model S gives you substantially more interior space. Additionally you get, better handling, much faster acceleration, easily twice the range, the 17" console (though lacking turn-by-turn navigation it will still have Google Maps). I'm pretty sure the keyless entry feature means that the doors will open based on proximity. Presumably the keyfob will have a button to unlock your car if you do not choose that option.

    Actually, I think the biggest disappointment is that you need to buy an entire $3500 package to get a backup camera. That seems a little silly. I consider a backup cam to be essential these days, and nothing else in that package is.
     
  14. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    Technically, tesla hasn't announced that you can't quick charge the base car. Just no 90kw supercharging.
     
  15. jimbakker666

    jimbakker666 Member

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    #15 jimbakker666, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
    If I'm told of a '160 mile version' of the vehicle, then I expect to get 160 miles out of it in a charge, give or take a little bit within reason.

    If I'm told that the 'Model S' can be recharged in an hour, then it's normal for me to believe that I'll be able to drive halfway to Vegas, charge for an hour while drinking coffee and smiling lovingly at my vehicle, then continue on with my little road trip.

    Not only will my vehicle not get 160 miles driving at less than freeway speed, but now I learn that I also can't quick charge it. Will I get ticketed from the CHP for driving too slowly and being a road hazard?

    It's very upsetting to learn this. If you've seen my posts, you will know that I'm very supportive of Tesla and the Model S. As such, it's sort of a kick in the nuts to learn that the vehicle I've reserved is not the vehicle I was sold. Slice it any way you will, but it is not my job as a customer to parse through Tesla's wordplay to determine what it is I'm really buying. As a company that wants my loyalty (and my money), it's their job to be open about the performance of their vehicles.

    I will not have the 0-60 performance that was suggested, time and time again. Do I care about that performance? No. Do I care that Tesla harped it, over and over, without ever suggesting that their entry-level model will not meet that performance? Of course I do, why wouldn't I?

    I don't get leather interior as a standard feature, but I'm okay with that because it's a reasonable upgrade (even for a 'luxury vehicle'). Same goes with the pano roof, in fact I think the pano roof is reasonably priced at $1500. But performance is key here, and I would say it's the #1 motivator for a huge number of reservation holders. And in the 160, they aren't delivering. For those with the ability to buy $80k+ vehicles, it probably doesn't matter all that much (though I think it should). I suppose that just illustrates that Tesla is not interested in my money. That's unfortunate, because I'm interested in Tesla. I feel like a jilted lover.

    Wow, glad I get a touchscreen at least. I mean, they could have made that optional as well and it would have been our fault for assuming that we would get that with our lowly 160s. Has anyone confirmed that the 160 is actually pure electric, I heard the 'Model S' was but did not actually hear that the 'Model S 160' was?

    Oh Jesus Lord Almighty.

    *EDIT* I'm gonna go take a breather guys, lol. I'm just very disappointed that the car that I've been hoping for, and in fact telling other people about, is not living up to it's billing.
     
  16. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    I always saw this as a car suitable for upper middle-class buyers, not middle class. (And of course that middle class standard is dropping and getting smaller.

    I don't know many people who consider themselves middle class and drive around BMWs and Audis...I think they'd be considered upper middle class.
     
  17. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    ^^^^I agree on the 0-60 performance but not on the 160 mile range at interstate speeds.

    The Roadster is rated @244mpc, and it will not get that @70mph. To think that the model s would is silly at best.
     
  18. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    I'm using QC has shorthand for DC quick charge. I don't think Tesla is offering any other QC than supercharging.
     
  19. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    They would be stupid not to offer an adapter for CHAdeMO.
     
  20. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    What's making you think that?
     

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