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Orbital refueling

Nikxice

Active Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,056
1,770
Hudson, NH
A fascinating takeaway from the news is NASA's acknowledgement of the Super Heavy/Starship program. If there's anybody willing to fact check, I can't recall NASA ever expressing any interest. Quote from the NASA press release, "SpaceX will work with Glenn and Marshall to advance technology needed to transfer propellant in orbit, an important step in the development of the company’s Starship space vehicle."
 

jdevo2004

Member
May 23, 2012
225
72
Doing complex things with fuel in orbit seems like a bad idea. Inevitibly something is going to go wrong and two large rockets will be destroyed causing a massive orbiting debris field.
 

bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
2,628
3,321
Bay Area
Doing complex things with fuel in orbit seems like a bad idea. Inevitibly something is going to go wrong and two large rockets will be destroyed causing a massive orbiting debris field.

This isn't a huge issue as it is outweighed by the risks present on the ground. While anomalies in space might create a debris field, anomalies on the ground create dead people. So, the safety side of things is pretty well understood.

This is also an evolution of ongoing refueling programs by NASA (Restore-L) and DARPA (RSGS), which are both hypergol based and arguably significantly more risky than CH4 and LOX. One could also argue that CH4 and LOX propellant transfer technology is far more important to space exploration than the old school hypergols.
 
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Nikxice

Active Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,056
1,770
Hudson, NH
Doing complex things with fuel in orbit seems like a bad idea.
Orbital refueling will be a big first in Space and Elon certainly relishes being at the top of the heap. A good idea, when the hardware and procedures are designed to work safely. The Russians are credited with many early firsts in Space, although some aerial skills won't easily transfer!
refueling.jpg
 
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ggies07

Supporting Member
Nov 8, 2012
3,783
6,824
Ft. Worth, TX
Eventually, Congress got the upper hand, putting NASA on track to build the large SLS rocket at a development cost of more than $2 billion a year. The rocket program mostly benefited the Alabama space center and was championed by Alabama State Senator Richard Shelby. The potential of in-space fuel storage and transfer threatened the SLS rocket because it would allow NASA to do some exploration missions with smaller and cheaper rockets. As one source explained at the time, "Senator Shelby called NASA and said if he hears one more word about propellant depots he’s going to cancel the Space Technology program."

I always wonder what life for humanity would be like if we collectively worked together instead of being greedy little monkeys....****ing greed. ****ing small minded people.
 

favo

P3D+ owner
Apr 5, 2012
1,036
1,128
Durham, NC
What has BO achieved anything or demonstrated anything so far in Space tech, that they deserve any funding?

They haven’t even put anything in orbit yet.
They aren't getting any money.

The article said:
The agreements do not provide any funding to the companies but instead allow them to work with NASA centers and tap into their expertise in a range of technologies.
 

bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
2,628
3,321
Bay Area
What has BO achieved anything or demonstrated anything so far in Space tech, that they deserve any funding?

Passing over the obvious gaffe that @favo pointed out, your assessment on the linearity of time is accurate. Indeed, one does not have a product before they have a product. o_O

The space industry is almost a worst case example throughout industry, because the investment to create a product is so massive. Instead, what is often demonstrated in order to receive funding is prototype concepts and sometimes prototype technologies, and general capability--both existing and planned--of the company. It is polar opposite to, say, consumer electronics or even automobiles, where the approach is build-it-and-they-will-come. In the space industry, basically nothing happens without someone first giving you money to do something, whether that money comes from investors (like SpaceX) or The Man (for things like the SLS program). In fact, pretty much the first of everything in space is funded by the latter, including predecessors to most of SpaceX's first order advancements, notably landing hardware from flight (Apollo) and reusing flight hardware (STS).

Layering extreme irony to the whole conversation, Blue Origin is basically the only space entity that--to a significant degree--doesn't operate in the fund-me-first way, because their operating budget is largely pulled out of some weird guy's rainy day jar.
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,186
13,841
San Mateo, CA
Blue Origin is basically the only space entity that--to a significant degree--doesn't operate in the fund-me-first way, because their operating budget is largely pulled out of some weird guy's rainy day jar.
If only SpaceX could find another uber-wealthy weird guy to fund colonizing missions to Mars! Paging Larry Page...

Back to in-orbit refueling: it is going to be fascinating to watch SpaceX figure out how to do it. I’m looking forward to a livestream of the first attempt.
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,290
19,556
San Diego
More background info. No prizes for figuring out who the villain is:

The SLS rocket may have curbed development of on-orbit refueling for a decade

This quote aged well:

"Let's be very honest again," Bolden said in a 2014 interview. "We don't have a commercially available heavy lift vehicle. Falcon 9 Heavy may someday come about. It's on the drawing board right now. SLS is real. You've seen it down at Michoud. We're building the core stage. We have all the engines done, ready to be put on the test stand at Stennis... I don't see any hardware for a Falcon 9 Heavy, except that he's going to take three Falcon 9s and put them together and that becomes the Heavy. It's not that easy in rocketry."
 
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ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,186
13,841
San Mateo, CA
Let's be very honest again," Bolden said in a 2014 interview. "We don't have a commercially available heavy lift vehicle. Falcon 9 Heavy may someday come about. It's on the drawing board right now. SLS is real. You've seen it down at Michoud. We're building the core stage. We have all the engines done, ready to be put on the test stand at Stennis... I don't see any hardware for a Falcon 9 Heavy, except that he's going to take three Falcon 9s and put them together and that becomes the Heavy. It's not that easy in rocketry."
Interesting. Let’s see... FH first flew February 2018, and then twice in 2019. All successful missions with 6 out of 9 boosters recovered and available for re-use.

SLS has yet to fly and likely won’t fly until 2021. Maybe.

I wonder what Bolden is thinking right now.
 

Nikxice

Active Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,056
1,770
Hudson, NH
I just rated the Bolden quotes as Funny. The gist of the story concerning Boeing's efforts to put the kibosh on orbital propellant depots deserves plenty of :mad: from U.S. taxpayers, especially space enthusiasts.

Great reporting by Eric Berger. Reading his 7 part series on the state of America's space program from 2014 is still quite interesting from the perspective of 2019.
As NASA seeks next mission, Russia holds the trump card | Adrift

From the article @Cosmacelf linked above. "It marked the first time NASA has really formally recognized Starship." Thanks for that fact check Eric!
 

Electroman

Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2012
6,116
6,173
TX
Interesting. Let’s see... FH first flew February 2018, and then twice in 2019. All successful missions with 6 out of 9 boosters recovered and available for re-use.

I thought 7 out of 9 boosters were recovered in three missions, only losing 2 center core boosters so far.
 

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