TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Ordering this week - what options would work best?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by davesm, Dec 27, 2015.

  1. davesm

    davesm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    #1 davesm, Dec 27, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
    To introduce myself, as this is my first post, I'm the dad of a family of four, a clean energy investor in MA, and have been craving a Tesla for years! But I never could financially justify getting one until now, when we need to replace our old Lexus RX400H ASAP. I put my deposit down on the Model X 14 months ago, but now we really don't want to wait another 6 months or more, and the additional cost of the X over the S, lower range, and unknown long-term reliability of the FWD in New England winters has pushed us back to the Model S. This car will be primarily for my wife to drive with the kids (since they should be driving the safest car there is!), but I'll get to drive it on weekends. And I'm trying to be as financially prudent as possible, once we're past the fact that we're getting a Tesla.

    I have done research already, but would really appreciate the wisdom of the crowd here re: the options:

    *Rear (trunk) seats: Obviously the biggest disadvantage compared to the X, but how practical have folks found them for the occasional carpool with kids in the 7-10 year old range? (I understand that ventilation is an issue...)

    *Dual motor: As a family car, we don't really need super high performance, and my understanding is that good snow tires makes much more of a difference than all wheel drive for winters. How much can folks vouch for rear wheel drive performance in the snow and in bad weather in general?

    *70 vs. 85: How much range degradation have folks with the S70 had? This is mostly for driving the kids around town, but we will take the occasional road trip, and at least want to make it 180 miles or so in non-ideal weather and driving at the speed of traffic in the left lane. I did notice based on the rated mileage that the 70 is rated to be a bit more efficient than the 85 (I assume due to lower battery weight)...

    *Fabric seats: How do these look and wear over time, especially w/kids?

    *Paint: Assuming we don't go for an expensive paint protection product and aren't super scrupulous about keeping the car perfect, what colors would handle real life, minor scratches and heavy winters best? We think the midnight silver looks the best, but am thinking the silver metallic would be more practical while still looking good?

    *Insurance: The one insurance quote I have so far is $3K for the Tesla and my 2004 Prius which seems high. Any suggestions for insurance companies to get quotes from (in Massachusetts)?

    We pretty much already decided to go for the autopilot, subzero package, and air suspension (we have a pothole filled road and somewhat steep driveway). Anything else we're missing?? (of course, taking into account the desire to minimize cost!)

    Thanks much for any and all advice, and looking forward to being part of this awesome community!
    Dave.
     
  2. davesm

    davesm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    PS - We have a few of the Climate XChange raffle tickets (http://climate-xchange.org/tesla-raffle/, and I know and love the people behind the organization), so am not planning to finalize my order until after 11pm on 12/31, but the rational part of my mind knows not to count on winning it and is just happy to support Climate XChange!
     
  3. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    1,300
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, CA
    I bought a 70 and now wish I had gotten an 85.
    Supercharging would go somewhat faster for a like number of miles added because the 85 battery would be at a lower SOC and so not tapering so soon.
    I am so excited about driving this car that I am considering more side trips away from superchargers, so 30 more miles of range would be nice.
    The extra $10,000 would be only about $5k on resale after 5 years.
     
  4. davesm

    davesm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Thanks. Does tapering happen before the battery is 80% charged? In fact, is there a graph anywhere showing tapering vs. charge level? My thought was that if possible I would only supercharge up to 80%, and therefore get the maximum rate of supercharging for the least amount of time (due to the smaller battery I would be at the supercharger less time)...
     
  5. ghbmd

    ghbmd Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    CT
    Rear seats have height and weight restraints. From Tesla Model S Manual "Rear facing seats are child restraint systems and must only be used for children over 37” tall and weighting between 35 and 77 lbs"
    If your children fall outside of this range (or will soon) I would pass on the seats.

    Regarding your question of dual motor or not- you live in Massachussets. Dual motor should be the most important thing on your list. I don't care how many people will say that a RWD car with snow tires is as good as an AWD drive car in the snow. There is nothing as good as an AWD car with snow tires. Considering the AWD option is only $5000 that is the best money you can spend. And think, you just saved $3000 by not getting the rear facing seats.
    :smile:
     
  6. Vger

    Vger Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,682
    Location:
    Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
    In an 85, tapering starts at about 40% SOC. So it is a significant factor in SpC charging time. Various people on TMC have measured and posted graphs. Use the search function to find them.
     
  7. David29

    David29 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Messages:
    559
    Location:
    DEDHAM, MA
    #7 David29, Dec 28, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
    70 vs. 85

    Although I have only had my 70D for 3 months and have not yet gone through a winter, I can already see a very real advantage to the 85. BUT -- a lot depends upon your driving habits, your charging arrangements, and where you might go on those occasional trips.
    On the other hand, if your finances are such that you have to decide between $5000 for the AWD D model and some options you want, versus $10K for the 85, I'd agree with the post above that said the D is very important. I think you'll definitely have more peace of mind with a D (probably with snow tires if you use the car daily and live in the suburbs) than with a RWD 85 model. I say that based upon my previous experience with RWD VS. RWD in other cars. Either way, use snow tires for maximum safety and assurance, especially if schlepping kids around.

    Oh, and one more thing, about charging. If you only make occasional long trips, and if you can normally do your charging mainly at home and/or work, then I do not think you should be concerned about the charging time difference between a 70 and an 85 at Superchargers. Yes, the 85 will charge a bit faster for the same number of miles, but not enough to override other factors in your decision, in my opinion. But if, for example, your long trips are to remote ski areas in northern New England in winter, or something similarly challenging, then I'd agree that you should shoot for the 85, or even the 90, battery if you can afford to.
     
  8. SomeJoe7777

    SomeJoe7777 Marginally-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2015
    Messages:
    531
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    I cannot comment on the rear seats, I have no experience with them.

    Dual motor is something I believe should be on your list. The AWD cars handle better for day-to-day driving. Where I notice it most is on wet streets. (Disclaimer: I live down south, so no experience in this car in snow.) I've driven RWD loaners, they can slip the rear wheels on wet streets. Further, the dual motor cars use the 2nd generation smaller motors, they are more efficient than the 1st-gen large motor used in the RWD cars, and they make much better use of the torque sleep efficiency feature.

    The 70 is obviously less expensive, but if you want to do 180 miles in non-ideal weather and at left-lane speed, I'd strongly recommend the 85. This will leave you with a reasonable buffer when it's time to charge, and won't require you to range charge to make it the 180 miles. As far as supercharging goes, you get more miles in less time with the 85. While the 70 will get to a certain percentage of charge faster, that represents less miles.

    No experience with the fabric seats, mine are next gen.

    I have midnight silver, but I applied a paint protection product. My guess would be that silver metallic will probably hide minor scratches or chips best.

    Shop around on your insurance. Because the model is so new, different insurance companies are quoting a fairly wide range of rates.

    For your other options, the only comment I would make is that if I had to do it over again, the air suspension might be the one thing I'd consider leaving off. For potholes and rough roads, the wheel size choice is much more important (19" wheels handle the rough roads and potholes MUCH better than the 21" wheels). I thought I might use the air suspension a lot, but I use it much less than I thought I would. I'd see if you can get a loaner/test vehicle with coil suspension and see what happens when you drive it up and down your driveway. If it clears without scraping, you may not need the air suspension.
     
  9. Xenoilphobe

    Xenoilphobe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,654
    Location:
    Fairfax County Virginia
    I have 70K miles behind the wheel of two Telsa P85's, so based on your location in the NE, I would opt for the standard AWD 85D, with 19's all seasons, drop the air suspension, drop the pano (unless you need it), go leather its more durable than the textile and easier to clean with kids, drop the rear seats, you kids will outgrow them faster than you can imagine. Also I would add the SubZero heating for the rear seat heaters, front heated steering wheel and headed windshield, everything is optional.

    Another option is to buy a "spec" car that they have in stock.

    My insurance on my 2014 is $1432 per year (middle level coverage) and on my 2013 is $1400 per year (also middle coverage) with USAA.
    $500K BIL, $100K PDL, $500K UMBI, $100K UMPD also towing and roadside assistance and car replacement assistance @ 20% value over actual cash value. Collision $200 Deductible, Other than collision $100 deductible. Income loss at $100 per week and medical benefits at $10K per person.
     
  10. Jool

    Jool Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages:
    285
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    If you plan to drive in a lot of cold weather, rain and snow, then I highly recommend you get the 85 instead of the 70. Cold weather plus using the cabin heater will eat up your charge extremely fast.

    Dual motor would definitely be worth the money for you. Stick with the 19 inch wheels since you've got potholes to deal with, and snow tires will be readily available for that size. The textile seats are actually pretty nice, they don't look or feel like the typical fabric seats you find in other cars. Check them out in person if possible!

    I would skip the rear facing seats, everything I've read says that kids will outgrow them quickly. You can probably skip the air suspension too - the air suspension doesn't go that much higher than the coil suspension, so unless you've got a really steep driveway the coils will work just fine. If you're really tight with your budget, you could drop the panoramic sunroof as well, but I find the car much nicer to drive with the pano roof because of the extra light it allows into the cabin.

    If you like the midnight silver, then go for it! I think it's silly to go with a different color just because they hide dirt and stuff a little better :smile:
     
  11. bmah

    bmah Obscure Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2015
    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Lafayette, CA
    Welcome to the forums! A few comments on some of your points, hopefully not repeating too much of what has already been posted:

    My son is 8 years old. Three kids of that age range will be quite comfortable across the second row of seats, so if you don't need to haul more kids than that, you could probably skip the third-row seats. As other posters have pointed out, your kids will outgrow the rear-facing seats over time.

    My car (85D built April 2015) has gray leather seats (1.5 gen), which I picked because I thought they'd be easier to clean than the fabric. So far so good, but it's only been eight months.

    My car is silver metallic because it does a pretty good job of hiding dirt and scratches (heavy winters don't apply where I live). I didn't do any paint protection. I like the looks of this color, but not everybody agrees with me.

    Alas, no advice for you (not being in Massachusetts), but wanted to take note of your 2004 Prius...I owned a 2005 Prius until I bought my Model S this year. (10 years, 206K miles, only one major maintenance issue that whole time.)

    Good luck!
     
  12. davidc18

    davidc18 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    806
    Location:
    So. FL
    1. Love our textile seats. Impervious to everything our 3 boys have done to them
    2. Get the D
    3. Install HPWC at home
    4. Skip the rear facing seats
    5. Coils
    6. AutoPilot
    7. Enjoy
     
  13. Max*

    Max* Autopilot != Autonomous

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    4,866
    Location:
    NoVa
    My kids don't like them, but they're a little younger. It gets hot back there, and I think my daughter gets car sick sitting backwards, not yet sure...

    That's a good point, you will lose time SpCing a 70D. Unless you need to do 0-100% charge at the SpC, on average we're talking about 20 additional minutes on a 500mile supercharger-to-supercharger roadtrip (there's tables somewhere to prove this)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Going about 75mph (left lane speeds on the east coast), in ideal-weather (I can't remember, I want to say it was between 70 and 90), I got about 210 miles and still had enough buffer to get to ~230miles.

    20150904_231417.jpg

    Non-deal weather = cold. Because when it's raining hard, you're not going to be driving 75mph on the east coast, as traffic is often crawling. The slower you go, the farther you can get (to a point). I've noticed in the cold that I lost about 20-25% range, going the same speed/same route. So a range charge on a 70D going 75mph in the cold may get you 180miles, but it may not.

    I would go for an 85D/90D if you must do 180-miles in the cold at left lane speeds.
     
  14. ModelS8794

    ModelS8794 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    404
    Location:
    PA
    If your kids are in booster seats AND you find yourself carpooling extra kids around a lot, then the kids seats are great. If it's almost always just the two kids or if one is out of a booster seat already, skip the RFS.

    If you do go for the rear seats, I'll say installing PhotoSynch tinting all the am way around was night and day difference for the heat in the back seats. Well worth the cost IMO.

    I have a steep driveway and my regular carpooling takes me to some particularly ugly speed bumps. The geofenced auto-raise on the air suspension (raise it the first time and it does it for you every other time you are in the same location) is a real benefit, so I'll plug that option if you have similar situation.

    I have a RWD and winter tires are a must IMO but I'd say as good as that performance is in winter I'd still have gone for AWD if it was available when I purchased mine.
     
  15. Cattledog

    Cattledog Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,708
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Dave - You'll love the car. Here are thoughts on options, but very choice is simply a different window on greatness.

    *Rear (trunk) seats: Obviously the biggest disadvantage compared to the X, but how practical have folks found them for the occasional carpool with kids in the 7-10 year old range? (I understand that ventilation is an issue...)
    We have two kids but didn't get them - they have utility, but limited. Really depends on how many times you'll be driving 6 or 7. I'd pass if $ matter.

    *Dual motor: As a family car, we don't really need super high performance, and my understanding is that good snow tires makes much more of a difference than all wheel drive for winters. How much can folks vouch for rear wheel drive performance in the snow and in bad weather in general?
    Definitely get. Feels like an extra gravitational force is gluing you to the road. Highly recommend for MA.

    *70 vs. 85: How much range degradation have folks with the S70 had? This is mostly for driving the kids around town, but we will take the occasional road trip, and at least want to make it 180 miles or so in non-ideal weather and driving at the speed of traffic in the left lane. I did notice based on the rated mileage that the 70 is rated to be a bit more efficient than the 85 (I assume due to lower battery weight)...
    I'd take the money from the rear seats and help pay for the 85D or 90D. You'll never regret it.

    *Fabric seats: How do these look and wear over time, especially w/kids?
    We don't have them, but I love them. I think in many ways they look nicer than leather.

    *Paint: Assuming we don't go for an expensive paint protection product and aren't super scrupulous about keeping the car perfect, what colors would handle real life, minor scratches and heavy winters best? We think the midnight silver looks the best, but am thinking the silver metallic would be more practical while still looking good?
    You're on the right track, avoid white and black and go for the midd-value colors. All look great.

    *Insurance: The one insurance quote I have so far is $3K for the Tesla and my 2004 Prius which seems high. Any suggestions for insurance companies to get quotes from (in Massachusetts)?
    We have two Model S' here in Texas, both 2012s, and pay a little less than $700/yr. for each.

    We pretty much already decided to go for the autopilot, subzero package, and air suspension (we have a pothole filled road and somewhat steep driveway). Anything else we're missing?? (of course, taking into account the desire to minimize cost!)
    Good decisions. Make sure you get 19" wheels to handle uneven road conditions.

    Thanks much for any and all advice, and looking forward to being part of this awesome community! Dave.
    Welcome to the club!

    You don't have to use mine, though you are very welcome to, but use someone's referral discount to get $1,000 off if you purchase or lease before 12/31. Enjoy!

    http://ts.la/greg8061

    [/QUOTE]
     
  16. TampaRich

    TampaRich Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    110
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    70 vs. 85:
    I have a 70D and drive to my parents house, 200 miles roundtrip, with no problem. 50% is highway driving at 70mph, the rest is 55 mph on two lane roads. Air conditioning ON (it's Florida). I return home with 18-30 miles of battery to spare. The AWD does bump your range by 10 miles, and seems to help your range the most at highway speeds.

    Fabric seats:
    Not sure. I will say that I got the tan leather next gen seats, and the color is much lighter than I expected. So far it's stayed clean with 3 kids, but I know I'll have to stay on top of it. If I had to do it over, I probably would have gone with black leather.

    Paint:
    Opticoat Pro cost me $700. The unexpected benefit from the coating is that the car stays cleaner longer, and just rinses off with water most of the time. Seems like it would do a good job keeping salt off your car in the winter. I'm originally from Maryland, and I know what a pain it is to wash a car when its super cold outside. My advise would be to pick the color you really like the best, Opticoat it to keep it looking like new and reduce the number of car washes.
     
  17. davesm

    davesm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Thanks to all for the advice! I had not been planning on getting the "D", but thanks to the advice here, I believe we now will.

    Re: 85 vs. 70, my sense is that no matter how much range you have, if going on road trips it would be better to have more. But for $2K/year ($10K + tax and cost of money - residual value), and for a few road trips a year where it would make a difference, that's a lot of $/hour, and in three years it might be less expensive to get a 100kWh+ battery. And also, from the Boston area, there seem to be reasonably convenient superchargers in every direction.

    Great to hear that the seats are good no matter which option you get (textile vs. leather)! Re: the rear seats, point taken that these won't be practical forever, but our 7-year-old tried and really likes them, and am hoping it will help with carpooling over the next three years.

    Re: paint protection, do folks believe that something like the Opticoat protection will pay for itself in reduced costs to maintain and in resale value, or is it primarily an aesthetics decision?

    Placing the order tomorrow and very excited!
     
  18. BoldSharpe

    BoldSharpe Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Opticoat is the equivalent of adding a coat of wax and will do nothing to protect the car from rock chips and the like. Many people will tell you Tesla paint is soft and suggest a clear bra like Xpel with a polymer coating like Opticoat on top but, really, I'd suggest you don't do anything. Just get the car, drive it, and enjoy it!

    There's a significant performance bump from the 70D to the 85D, in addition to the range and supercharging speed benefits.

    Best of luck with your decision and be sure to update us with what you ordered.
     
  19. luvnMyTS

    luvnMyTS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    You live in a cold weather climate. If you need a range of 180 miles, would without a doubt go for at least the 85 kWh battery. With the 70, you'll experience some serious range anxiety in cold temperatures trying to stretch to 180 miles. Yes, it costs more, but the value of an 85 kWh on resale will be higher too. I went with the 90 just because it's available and I don't ever want to have to have the car tell me I have to slow down to make my destination or stop more often than necessary.

    You say you want this for safety of your family and you live in a cold environment where there is snow, so an All Wheel Drive car is an absolute must. Rear wheel drive with just snow tires won't do anything to add safety. From reports I've read, people say the AWD is amazing in the snow. If safety is a concern, this one thing you shouldn't think twice about.

    Any color other than solid Black should hold up fairly well.
     
  20. davesm

    davesm Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Here's what we just ordered. Still not completely decided on the 85D vs. 70D (or even Model S vs. Model X), but I figure we now have a week to decide!

    Your Model S

    Model S 85D
    All-Wheel Drive
    Silver Metallic Paint
    Body Color Roof
    19" Wheels
    Multi-Pattern Black Seats
    Piano Black Décor
    Matching Yacht Floor
    White Alcantara Headliner
    Supercharger Enabled
    Autopilot Convenience Features
    Smart Air Suspension
    Subzero Weather Package
    Rear Facing Seats
     

Share This Page