Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

[tga]

Why is it 'silly' to make sure it is less likely someone will drop a Tesla drivetrain from a wrecked vehicle into the chassis of an El Camino? You pays your money, you takes your chances. There should be no harm to Tesla's reputation for NOT allowing something that is so very obviously contrary to normal service. There is NOTHING normal about asking a company to re-certify salvaged parts for use on a warrantied vehicle. It is the very request that is 'crap' -- not the denial.

Since you seem to be focusing on in-warranty status (which isn't really the issue here), what about in 5 years? You do realize it is common to fix cars with used/junkyard parts, right?

Fast forward 5 years. An X owner's drive unit dies. @wk057 "fixes" it with a drive unit from a salvage car. That kind of repair happens thousands of times a day, except that this particular car is still dead. Only a Tesla factory shop can get it going again.

And you could "easily" (in theory) put the drivetrain of a wrecked Tesla into an El Camino - you just have to use parts from the same car (not mix and match from multiples). It's been done already (to a Fisker)

 

[MP3Mike]

Fast forward 5 years. An X owner's drive unit dies. @wk057 "fixes" it with a drive unit from a salvage car. That kind of repair happens thousands of times a day, except that this particular car is still dead. Only a Tesla factory shop can get it going again.

Same is true of Subarus. If you replace a transmission with one from a salvage vehicle the car won't even start. On the other hand you can tow that car to a Subaru dealer and pay them $150 to re-program the computer so that it will operate again. (They claim this is to help prevent chop shops.)

Tesla needs to change their policy on this now.

 

[kiefer]

Well Google has just been fined around 2.7Bn USD for violating EU anti trust laws. For unfairly favoring some of its own services over those of rivals.

This could apply to Tesla as well if EU went into looking at how Tesla is doing their business favouring their own service centers...

 

[Red Sage]

Since you seem to be focusing on in-warranty status (which isn't really the issue here), what about in 5 years? You do realize it is common to fix cars with used/junkyard parts, right?

Fast forward 5 years. An X owner's drive unit dies. @wk057 "fixes" it with a drive unit from a salvage car. That kind of repair happens thousands of times a day, except that this particular car is still dead. Only a Tesla factory shop can get it going again.

And you could "easily" (in theory) put the drivetrain of a wrecked Tesla into an El Camino - you just have to use parts from the same car (not mix and match from multiples). It's been done already (to a Fisker)

In five years, the Model X will still be under warranty for the drivetrain. Even with Model S, no one's powertrain warranty is going to expire for another THREE years. And that assumes that Tesla doesn't decide to extend the warranty AGAIN retroactively. So, yeah -- I am talking about WARRANTY REPAIRS ON THE DRIVETRAIN because NONE OF THEM HAVE EXPIRED YET -- except for any vehicle component from a salvaged car, as was the point of the earlier complaint.

Wanna go for ten years instead? Fifteen? If unimpeded by laws meant to 'protect' all of the 'poowa widdo guyz whut wun duh Mom & Pop nu cawuh deewahz' Tesla would be fully expanded throughout the nation with their own Service Centers. And, with the incredible success that would come as a result of hundreds of thousands more of their cars reaching Customers every year, there would certainly be a multitude of third party authorized service centers after ten years had passed. And then the notion of Tesla having a 'monopoly' would be done with.

Once again... I offer the same challenge to those who believe that Tesla MUST have independent shops working on their cars as I did to those who claimed Tesla could become 'The NeXT EXXON!!!' by levying fees for Supercharging... Put your money where your mouth is... Go to Tesla with your proposal for opening up independent shops that specialize in Tesla and other fully electric vehicles. Or... Take the opposite route and explain to AAMCO, MiDAS, NAPA, AutoZone, Pep Boys, Sears, Walmart, and everyone else you can think of exactly why they should pursue a long lasting relationship with Tesla to supply parts and service to their Customers going forward. If truly viable, that should satisfy your stated for 'independent service' need sooner than my own timeline of 10-to-15 years (and preferably 20-to-30 years for custom tuning & tinkering).

But no -- you cannot reasonably expect Tesla to lay bare all of their hard won proprietary information to anyone under the sun that made it through a semester of Ninth Grade Shop Class. Tesla is not going to offer boxed drivetrain sets to anyone for their personal projects. Tesla is not going to sell a bare chassis to anyone to do with as they please. Ford, GM, and heck, even Winnebago are willing to do that for custom applications -- call them.

Leave Tesla out of it. Think of this like playing dominoes... "All Money Ain't Good Money!" my Friends & Relatives warn. Just because there may be decent dough to be earned by catering to the 'needs' of a few die hard tinkerers and custom builders, doesn't mean that Tesla has to help them at all.

Employees at Tesla and SpaceX often speak of the secondary motto of the company "Don't remind us 'it has never been done before'... Don't say it can't be done -- Figure it out!" Essentially, the belief is that if it can be conceived, it may be achieved. You aren't done until you have done it. Then you get to do the same thing some more, on a different project. Well you know what? The very same attitude applies to Do-It-Yourselfers. FIGURE IT OUT! Don't go around whining about how 'hard' it is, or how much 'easier' it is with others, or how you want Tesla to GIVE you something first... If you want to do it -- git 'er done!

Sure... I would LOVE to convert my Uncle John's Oldsmobile 442, or my Uncle George's Chevrolet El Camino SS, or similar to a fully electric drivetrain that was 'POWERED by TESLA'. But you know what? I'm willing to wait. If I must, I really have no problem at all with waiting 25+ years to start my own personal Tesla Classic Conversion Series. I honestly do not understand why so many others are in such a rush.

 

[Red Sage]

Same is true of Subarus. If you replace a transmission with one from a salvage vehicle the car won't even start. On the other hand you can tow that car to a Subaru dealer and pay them $150 to re-program the computer so that it will operate again. (They claim this is to help prevent chop shops.)

Tesla needs to change their policy on this now.

Why?

 

[Red Sage]

Well Google has just been fined around 2.7Bn USD for violating EU anti trust laws. For unfairly favoring some of its own services over those of rivals.

This could apply to Tesla as well if EU went into looking at how Tesla is doing their business favouring their own service centers...

Someone in either Virginia or North Carolina tried a similar tactic against Tesla. The judge found that the evidence showed the majority of Tesla Customers were overwhelmingly satisfied with their levels of Service. Far more so than any 'independent franchised dealership' could even hope to match. Typically when it comes to antitrust issues, there is no problem with possessing monopoly power. The problems come with the application of that monopoly power. If a third party organization is able to demonstrate their interest, willingness, and ability to service Tesla automobiles to a satisfactory level, Tesla is certain to grant them license to do so. Someone who cannot do so will not have a leg to stand on in a court of law either. Just saying that you ought to have the right to try and fail is simply not enough.

 

[Red Sage]

Is there an automobile manufacturer, anywhere at all, that actively encourages transplants by third parties of components from salvaged cars into a different vehicle to be serviced under warranty by authorized service centers? How happy would Ferrari be with someone who wanted to drop a Ford GT500 engine into a LaFerrari? Would Ford be happy to assist someone who wanted to transplant a Cosworth Escort engine into the more modern frame of a Ford Focus? I seriously doubt those projects would be sanctioned by the original manufacturer in any case.

Hmmm... @MP3Mike marked this post with 'Disagree'... I don't see a reply from him on the subject. This is why I typically do not post leading, rhetorical questions. But I'm pretty sure the answers to the above questions would be:

No.
No.
No.​

I doubt anyone here would be too surprised if that were the case. And that is precisely why I believe it is utterly bogus that anyone would expect to receive warranty Service on a car with salvage parts transplanted into it. Remember, the drivetrain on a Model S 85 has an eight-year warranty. None of them have expired, because the cars were released to the first buyers five years ago. Why did someone want to transplant a salvaged drivetrain into a car they already owned legitimately? They could have just taken the car back to Tesla and had it fixed under warranty. Right? My guess is that they were trying to do something else, perhaps upgrade the drivetrain beyond what was included with the original car, but aren't being forthcoming with that data. A Camaro RS isn't going to get warranty service after dropping in an LT1 engine either.

 

[St Charles]

I'm curious when this discussion turned into warranty vs 3rd party repair. Lots of strawman arguments in the above posts.

 

[cwerdna]

Even with Model S, no one's powertrain warranty is going to expire for another THREE years. And that assumes that Tesla doesn't decide to extend the warranty AGAIN retroactively. So, yeah -- I am talking about WARRANTY REPAIRS ON THE DRIVETRAIN because NONE OF THEM HAVE EXPIRED YET -- except for any vehicle component from a salvaged car, as was the point of the earlier complaint

Are you asserting that nobody with an earlier 60 kWh or 40 kWh Model S has passed 125K miles yet? Those guys didn't get an 8 year/unlimited mileage warranty on the DU.

 

[kiefer]

Someone in either Virginia or North Carolina tried a similar tactic against Tesla. The judge found that the evidence showed the majority of Tesla Customers were overwhelmingly satisfied with their levels of Service. Far more so than any 'independent franchised dealership' could even hope to match. Typically when it comes to antitrust issues, there is no problem with possessing monopoly power. The problems come with the application of that monopoly power. If a third party organization is able to demonstrate their interest, willingness, and ability to service Tesla automobiles to a satisfactory level, Tesla is certain to grant them license to do so. Someone who cannot do so will not have a leg to stand on in a court of law either. Just saying that you ought to have the right to try and fail is simply not enough.

I am quite sure that EU does not care wether the customers of Google or Facebook are satisfied with the service they get.

 

[tga]

In five years, the Model X will still be under warranty for the drivetrain. Even with Model S, no one's powertrain warranty is going to expire for another THREE years.

Fair enough - a drivetrain part was a bad example. Change that to the MCU, suspension components, etc. and your argument falls apart.

The fundamental problem with no non-Tesla repair options (third party or DIY) is that it gives Tesla a monopoly on repairs, and they can charge whatever they want. Their labor rate is currently no bargain, you know.

This isn't really a problem now, since it's unlikely anyone will likely pay for a warranty-covered repair at a third-party shop. That's why the thread is about out-of-warranty repairs. Although, honestly, I would have considered replacing my own 12V battery rather than driving 4 hours round trip for a freebie.

 

[Brando]

Hmmm... As a publisher, they can choose which vehicles they cover. Amazing this thing called 'choice' for a business. Nice to know they cannot be forced to do something they might find isn't in their best interest, ain't it...?

AND the warranty period is no doubt a factor.
Since Tesla has an 8 year unlimited warranty on battery/motor, we'll see in 2020/21.
Until then, self repair not really an issue for a car over $75,000, is it.

If you are really into self repair, you buy used, very used and repair the car to the state you want.

 

[tga]

If you are really into self repair, you buy used, very used and repair the car to the state you want.

Really? Well then, I guess a friend who spent ~$100k on a 996 GT3 and then about that much again on a pile of Porsche RSR parts that he installed himself didn't get your memo. His home garage is better equipped than a lot of professional shops.

"Car guys" who like to pick up a wrench come at all income levels. DIY isn't always about "I can't afford to hire a pro."

 

[Red Sage]

Are you asserting that nobody with an earlier 60 kWh or 40 kWh Model S has passed 125K miles yet? Those guys didn't get an 8 year/unlimited mileage warranty on the DU.

Sure. I presume that most people who got the 40 kWh, or 60 kWh versions of the Model S in 2013 probably had no intention of driving so far, so soon. They certainly haven't passed five years of ownership. Most Tesla Owners I've come across that say they drive their Model S more than they used to with ICE, seem to be at roughly 25,000 miles per year instead of 12,000 to 15,000. So, in the past four years, they may have driven ~100,000 miles. Of those who have posted as having driven substantially beyond 100,000 miles already, the reports I've seen have been from those with an 85 kWh battery pack or higher capacity in their cars. If you are aware of owners of Model S 40 or the original Model S 60 who have passed those landmarks, please direct me to their testimonials, I'd like to read them. Especially the parts that cover 'Out of warranty concerns about Tesla' as stated in the Original Post. Thanks!

 

[Red Sage]

I am quite sure that EU does not care wether the customers of Google or Facebook are satisfied with the service they get.

Why would they not be? I would presume the actions of the EU were likely to 'protect' consumers/customers. Or was it just a fine for the sake of highway robbery?

 

[Red Sage]

Fair enough - a drivetrain part was a bad example. Change that to the MCU, suspension components, etc. and your argument falls apart.

Perhaps. But that is why I stuck to the specific complaint that had been brought up. I pointed out the flaws in that particular complaint -- the inability to use salvaged parts to replace components that should be under warranty anyway. It is also why I noted earlier that anything that is done to make life easier for Consumers also makes life easier for Criminals. The ability to easily and readily replace drivetrain components with salvaged pieces or something that someone cobbles together on their own makes life a lot easier for chop shops.

I strongly suspect that the primary reason why Daimler and Toyota divested of TSLA in 2014 was due to their being utterly confused by Tesla's motivation. They decided that Tesla's mission statement had to be a crock... So they probably wanted to use Tesla technology in their own plug-in hybrids and Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. I bet they were flabbergasted when Tesla turned down what would have been lucrative contracts. After all, if you go to any other supplier, from Bosch to ZF, they don't give a flaming fig what you do with their components after you buy them. Heck, as long as the check clears, you can use them to assemble lawn furniture for all they care. But Tesla was stubborn, naive, and insisted they would only supply components to partners for use in fully electric cars. Daimler and Toyota undoubtedly saw that as being extremely stupid, and probably rather disrespectful.

Because of their mission, Tesla is extremely protective of their vehicles. This may seem alarmist, extremist, or just plain silly to you. Tesla doesn't care. I know that some think of this as being far too paranoid. But you know what? Maybe if Tucker and DeLorean had been more paranoid of what might happen in a 'worst case scenario', those companies would still be around. Each company was destroyed because their reputation was shot down by entirely falsified and trumped up charges brought unfairly. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. And they are definitely after Tesla.

 

[Red Sage]

Really? Well then, I guess a friend who spent ~$100k on a 996 GT3 and then about that much again on a pile of Porsche RSR parts that he installed himself didn't get your memo. His home garage is better equipped than a lot of professional shops.

"Car guys" who like to pick up a wrench come at all income levels. DIY isn't always about "I can't afford to hire a pro."

The Porsche 996 GT3 is an OLD car. Produced from 1999 through 2005. Tesla was only two years old, and three years from the release of their first car, the Roadster, when the last 996 GT3 rolled off the assembly line to the waiting hands of someone who bought it NEW. That was TWELVE YEARS AGO. When there is a twelve year old Tesla Model S, I'm sure the option will be readily available for someone who wants to spend way too much to get it, and way too much to fix it up, should they decide to take on that project. That is whether they decide to wrench on it themselves, or do a 'check book restoration'. If that happens, some seven years from now, I'm sure that guy will be happy to post about it here.

 

[Red Sage]

AND the warranty period is no doubt a factor.
Since Tesla has an 8 year unlimited warranty on battery/motor, we'll see in 2020/21.

Yup! Just in time for the introduction of the Tesla Model S II or Tesla Model S 2.0 -- whichever they decide. There have been a whole bunch of different Buick Century, Pontiac Bonneville, Chevrolet Citation, Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight, and Cadillac El Dorado iterations over the years. I doubt many of them had a publicly available repair manual in the first couple of years after release.

 

[FlatSix911]

The Porsche 996 GT3 is an OLD car. Produced from 1999 through 2005. Tesla was only two years old, and three years from the release of their first car, the Roadster, when the last 996 GT3 rolled off the assembly line to the waiting hands of someone who bought it NEW. That was TWELVE YEARS AGO. When there is a twelve year old Tesla Model S, I'm sure the option will be readily available for someone who wants to spend way too much to get it, and way too much to fix it up, should they decide to take on that project. That is whether they decide to wrench on it themselves, or do a 'check book restoration'. If that happens, some seven years from now, I'm sure that guy will be happy to post about it here.

Porsche provides racing parts with factory support for new cars as well as older models.

 

[St Charles]

Dear Customer,

We are sorry to hear that your Model 3 recently failed safety inspection due to a worn tie rod end. Please feel free to schedule an appointment at one of our service centers and we will replace the component free of charge. Regrettably, lead times on suspension components are currently 3-6 months due to supplier issues.


Love,
Tesla