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Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

Discussion in 'Model S' started by rdrcrmatt, Dec 2, 2014.

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  1. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    I suspect Tesla will do just that. They already have open-source patents (vs Apple that sues over mice and corners or look and feel - check with MicroSoft and Samsung) .

    Tesla is just a little busy following all the different international business laws, safety laws, tax laws all those other things it takes to build an international auto company - which very few have done over the last 40 years at scale. Which might explain why Lotus (and others) never bothered.

    Tesla mission is to accelerate the electrification of transport which might help explain why no dealers, transparent pricing (everyone pays the same), continuous improvement (even if customers complain about short/no notices of improvement offerings), software updates, no wasted money on Madison Ave advertising BS (press really must hate that). I think other OEMs may have a worthy competitor. (Elon has said Service would not be a profit center, which of course Wall St. won't be happy about. We shall see how that plays out.) To steal a Madison Ave phrase, "not your father's car company" (or was it Buick??) Interesting times, even if a little boring and pie in the sky at times.
     
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  2. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    #682 Brando, Aug 21, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    bkp_duke - (taking a year to get clips and other trivial items to complete re-builds)

    Being on the bleeding edge of technology seems no easy task. I can now better understand your frustrations. And you still managed to work thru two Teslas. Like Elon, you never quit.

    On a side note, I have always been frustrate over the bits and pieces that are common to all autos that have so many variations making parts so over priced. As just one example; Doing Inventory of auto parts in the early 1970s, I found the same Delco alternator with many different selling prices, depending which GM model you were buying for. Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, GMC. The amount of time and the costs to cross match all these parts to different models of cars is just staggering. Same for brake rotors etc.
     
  3. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    #683 Brando, Aug 21, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    Near 80 million "EMU - Engine Management Units" or computer control for ICE. And doing so for nearly 3 decades now.
    The prices they ask for these units do NOT seem fair and reasonable. Same for injectors, rotors, pads, etc. Just my opinion. At least the diagnostic tool got reasonable. And Auto parts stores usually let you use for free.

    Autonomous Driving software - how much is that worth?
    (Since cell phones are made/sold in such large numbers [over a billion per year] I don't think any other computer product advances as quickly. People seem to buy new ones about every 3 years I suspect cell phones may "control" more and more things. we shall see
     
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  4. appleguru

    appleguru Member

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    I don't disagree with the notion that Tesla will improve here, my gripe is that their current tools (Toolbox) are more than adequate for the job, but they still refuse to provide access, despite the legal requirement that they do so (and it being the right and customer friendly thing to do).

    I understand and can appreciate that they likely have a number of reasons to not want to release these tools to the wider public (idiots making headlines, the possibility that the tools could be used to bypass parts of their current business model (i.e., unlock EAP/FSD/supercharging/bigger battery, etc), the possibility that the tools could be used as an aid to "hack" into cars/bypass some of the built in security, etc...)

    Most of these could be solved with a user agreement and a little bit of trust. None are anywhere near good enough reasons to give Tesla a pass at complying with a law that every other auto manufacturer has to follow. We voted for this law in MA. By choosing to do business in MA, Tesla implicitly (if not explicitly) agreed to follow MA laws and regulations.

    So, as much as I love Tesla and my car, there isn't a lot of wiggle room on this one. They're trying to hide behind the trade secrets clause in the law and/or the "we're not really a dealership clause so none of this applies to us until 2018" arguments. But the fact remains that both of those arguments rely on completely ignoring the intent and spirit of the law in an attempt to wriggle out of compliance.

    These arguments fly in the face of their rule #1 in their code of conduct and ethics:
    Anyways, here's to hoping I get access to Toolbox and a positive resolution without having to resort to the courts to compel it. Tesla is playing a stupid game here by playing sides, publicly pretending to be consumer friendly and open ("opening sourcing Tesla patents"), while privately actively taking measures to prevent users from getting access to the tools and information needed to maintain our vehicles (in my case, in violation of the current state law).
     
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  5. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    #685 Brando, Aug 21, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    I wonder, since MA, MI, UT, TX and I forget the others, don't allow Tesla to have "stores" perhaps courts would think Tesla not approved to sell in the State, so can't be held to local state law?? So far Amazon has made sure Feds overrule states when it comes to state laws so all internet sales are allowed as far as I know.
    See how Bezos has avoided collecting local sales taxes for a very long time until his price advantage (tax free sales) put many brick and mortar small business out of business (book stores were the most obvious to me). I think Amazon down to less than 6 or 10 states they don't collect sales tax for.

    Sadly, our legal system seems to have little to do with justice/fairness and comes down to mafia type governance - pay fees/pay politicians elections and state will leave you alone - dealership monopolies for example??

    State will not have to provide a service for such fees - (such as restaurant inspections or food processing - meats etc.) Note number of food contamination problems which should have all been prevented if said inspection/inspectors were actually doing their jobs. Or the allowing of drugs used on kids (<5year olds in US we have over 5 million on psychotropic which have NEVER been research tested on this age group - how does this even happen?? ritalin one example).
     
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  6. appleguru

    appleguru Member

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    #686 appleguru, Aug 21, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
    While dealers did push back in MA, Tesla won in court in 2014 and has since opened up several stores and service centers (including the one I bought my car from):

    Massachusetts State Automobile Dealers v Tesla | Franchising | Standing (Law)

    So, pretty hard to argue the rules don't apply to them... Tesla is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
     
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  7. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Active Member

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    I really hope you keep pushing Tesla on this. Its complete BS that they are refusing to allow access to the Toolbox.
     
  8. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

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  9. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    You would have to sue, or get a consumer support group to sue on your behalf, if you wanted to protest the cost of diagnostic tools, whatever it might be. Just because you might not like it, doesn't mean you automatically have a case against something you personally feel is 'unfair and unreasonable'. You would have to prove your case in court. If the person who wants to buy something can determine whether or not it is not it is priced in a 'fair and reasonable' manner, then Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Rolls-Royce would be knee deep in law suits from people who would claim a Toyota Camry had more value.

    If you honestly believe it is not necessary to make an investment of at least several thousands of dollars for equipment and training to become an 'authorized maintenance provider' for premium automotive brands, you should take another look. Not only is it considered fair and reasonable, it is commonplace and expected. Because in most such industries, no one wants to leave the door open to competition. So the threshold is placed rather high, supposedly to maintain professional standards, but actually to keep others out of the business.

    Trust that the 'independent shops' you are so intent upon looking out for are fully aware of this.
     
  10. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    Waitasec... You and others in this thread have admitted time and again that you don't trust Tesla, any of the terms of their current Purchase Agreement, any of the terms of their current Warranty, any of the terms of their Extended Service Agreement, any of their policies currently or in the future... But you expect Tesla to trust... YOU to do 'the right thing'...? SERIOUSLY? Wow.

    "Trust is good. Control is better." -- The Former President/CEO (deceased) of my previous employer.
     
  11. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    I am a big fan of 'The Little Red Hen'. When you do everything yourself? Yes, you get to have your cake and eat it to. So there.

     
  12. St Charles

    St Charles Member

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    I think the analogy would be more accurate if the Little Red Hen had actively prevented the Pig, Dog and Cow from assisting and then proudly and loudly proclaimed how she was the only one who could it.
     
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  13. JonathanD

    JonathanD Member

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    Back to original subject, I was nervous about this issue as well, and in addition to cost considerations, I elected to have as few options as I could get away with given I had a somewhat early version of Model S (2014). As a result, no pano roof, no air suspension, 19" wheels, etc. Only thing I got was the tech package (that is now standard) and the parcel shelf (yes we used to have to pay for those). With that set-up and only ~26k miles on the car over the past 3 years, I'm thinking it may be worth skipping extended warranty coverage and rolling the dice that the car won't incur $4250+deductibles over the second 4 years of life. Dunno if that's wise or not, but if one can't take that gamble on this configuration, I'm not sure you ever could.
     
  14. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    The Pig, Dog, and Cow in this instance are 'independent franchised dealerships' via NADA, traditional automobile manufacturers such as General Motors, and the various State level regulators and elected officials on their lobbyist payrolls -- and they are actively preventing The Little Red Tesla Hen from doing everything themselves, then complaining... heh, pun not intended... 'foul' that it should not be allowed because, like, consumers and stuff. So, yeah, perfectly accurate and entirely appropriate.
     
  15. St Charles

    St Charles Member

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    Nothing bad has ever happened to a company that actively tried to stifle competition:

    Microsoft
    Google
    AT&T
    Standard Oil

    Pay special attention to the Microsoft antitrust case. Microsoft actively attempted to prevent 3rd party internet browsers from running properly on Windows. Tesla can choose to either learn from the past or god help anyone who holds TSLA stock.
     
  16. claudelaval

    claudelaval Member

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    and some still maintain that Tesla is the more ''open'' car company...
     
  17. claudelaval

    claudelaval Member

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    EW is pretty expensive
     
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  18. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    @rdrcrmatt

    Tesla Model S and X still have 8 year unlimited mile drivetrain warranty.
    What are you worried about ?? Brakes? (coolant, seriously you can't be serious)
    Surely you've used junk yards before for those bits and pieces.
    If you are truthful of your experience I can't imagine you fear any of these things.

    and if in a real bind - you need the manuals - here they are.
    Welcome | Tesla Service

    I can't imagine you haven't visited a junkyard for bits and pieces in the past.
    Perhaps people use e-Bay vs junkyards now days??
     
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  19. sorka

    sorka Well-Known Member

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    You do realize of course that you can only get access to those online if you live in Massachusetts?????

    So no, you can't get access to their service documents and even if you lived in MA, most of it is useless without their proprietary software/equipment. By state law they have to provide the documentation in MA, for a price, but they don't have to provide the equipment necessary to use it so most of it is useless.

    Care to price out an MCU if it goes bad? $5K. Many are on their second or third already.
     
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  20. markb1

    markb1 Active Member

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    The service manual has been leaked:

    Tesla Model S Service Manual -- FREE
     

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