Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

You do realize of course that you can only get access to those online if you live in Massachusetts?????

So no, you can't get access to their service documents and even if you lived in MA, most of it is useless without their proprietary software/equipment. By state law they have to provide the documentation in MA, for a price, but they don't have to provide the equipment necessary to use it so most of it is useless.

Care to price out an MCU if it goes bad? $5K. Many are on their second or third already.

I thought it was closer to $3,000. I would just negotiate this down to $800 if mine went out: Tesla Model S or X Main screen computer MCU

 

[demundus]

I thought it was closer to $3,000. I would just negotiate this down to $800 if mine went out: Tesla Model S or X Main screen computer MCU

800ish is the "screen".... 3kish is the WHOLE thing. You might be able to talk them into "saving" your screen if your entire computer went bad for "less" but... who the F knows these days, MCUs have been volatile for years.

 

[neroden]

You do realize of course that you can only get access to those online if you live in Massachusetts?????

So no, you can't get access to their service documents and even if you lived in MA, most of it is useless without their proprietary software/equipment. By state law they have to provide the documentation in MA, for a price, but they don't have to provide the equipment necessary to use it so most of it is useless.

Massachusetts requires that they provide the proprietary software and equipment too.

For model year 2002 motor vehicles and thereafter and model year 2013 heavy duty vehicles and thereafter, each manufacturer of motor vehicles sold in the commonwealth shall make available for purchase by owners and independent repair facilities all diagnostic repair tools incorporating the same diagnostic, repair and wireless capabilities that such manufacturer makes available to its dealers. Such tools shall incorporate the same functional repair capabilities that such manufacturer makes available to dealers. Each manufacturer shall offer such tools for sale to owners and to independent repair facilities upon fair and reasonable terms.

Massachusetts is pretty hardcore and has actually updated this law to eliminate loopholes, multiple times.

2014 Massachusetts General Laws :: PART I ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT :: TITLE XV REGULATION OF TRADE :: CHAPTER 93J-2 MASSACHUSETTS RIGHT TO REPAIR ACT :: Section 2 Access by owners of motor vehicles and by independent repair facilities to motor vehicle manufacturer diagnostic and repair information and diagnostic repair tools otherwise made available to dealers

There's not much you can do about Tesla's abusive unfair trade practices if you *don't* live in Massachusetts, but if you live in Massachusetts, make them sell you the diagnostic software, and sue the hell out of them if they don't.

 

[neroden]

I don't disagree with the notion that Tesla will improve here, my gripe is that their current tools (Toolbox) are more than adequate for the job, but they still refuse to provide access, despite the legal requirement that they do so (and it being the right and customer friendly thing to do).

I would be happy to help defray the costs of a lawsuit against Tesla for this flagrant anti-consumer lawbreaking.

I understand and can appreciate that they likely have a number of reasons to not want to release these tools to the wider public (idiots making headlines, the possibility that the tools could be used to bypass parts of their current business model (i.e., unlock EAP/FSD/supercharging/bigger battery, etc), the possibility that the tools could be used as an aid to "hack" into cars/bypass some of the built in security, etc...)

Most of these could be solved with a user agreement and a little bit of trust. None are anywhere near good enough reasons to give Tesla a pass at complying with a law that every other auto manufacturer has to follow. We voted for this law in MA. By choosing to do business in MA, Tesla implicitly (if not explicitly) agreed to follow MA laws and regulations.

So, as much as I love Tesla and my car, there isn't a lot of wiggle room on this one. They're trying to hide behind the trade secrets clause in the law and/or the "we're not really a dealership clause so none of this applies to us until 2018" arguments. But the fact remains that both of those arguments rely on completely ignoring the intent and spirit of the law in an attempt to wriggle out of compliance.

They're a dealership. I just checked Massachusetts law and an "agent of a manufacturer" who is "selling cars" requires a license which is called a "dealership" license. You'd probably want a decent lawyer -- Tesla doesn't have a leg to stand on, though.

They're going to have to make some very specific arguments to sustain a trade secret claim (seriously, is the brand of coolant a trade secret *really*?); if they do, it'll be time to go back to the legislature and weaken the trade secret exemption.


A reminder on the procedure:

Section 6. (a) In addition to any other remedies that may be available, a violation of this chapter shall be deemed to be an unfair method of competition and an unfair or deceptive act or practice in the conduct of trade or commerce in violation of section 2 of chapter 93A.

(b) An independent repair facility or owner who believes that a manufacturer has failed to provide information or a tool required by this chapter shall notify the manufacturer, in writing, through the National Automotive Service Task Force Service Information Request process, or its successor organization or process, and give the manufacturer 30 days from the time the manufacturer receives the complaint to cure the failure. If the manufacturer cures said complaint within the cure period, damages shall be limited to actual damages in any subsequent litigation pursuant to chapter 93A.

(c) If a manufacturer fails to respond to the notice provided pursuant to subsection (b), or if an independent repair facility or owner is not satisfied with the manufacturer's cure, the independent repair facility or owner may file a complaint in the superior court or, if applicable, in the federal district court for the district of Massachusetts. Such complaint shall include, but not be limited to: (i) written information confirming that the complainant has visited the relevant manufacturer website and attempted to effect a proper repair utilizing information provided on such website, including communication with customer assistance via the manufacturer's toll-free call-in assistance, if made available by the manufacturer; (ii) written information confirming that the complainant has obtained and utilized the relevant manufacturer's scan or diagnostic tool necessary for such repair; and (iii) evidence of manufacturer notification as set out in subsection (b).

I guess you start with documenting what you're already attempting (communications with Tesla), then go through the NASTFSR process, then file suit.

These arguments fly in the face of their rule #1 in their code of conduct and ethics:


Anyways, here's to hoping I get access to Toolbox and a positive resolution without having to resort to the courts to compel it. Tesla is playing a stupid game here by playing sides, publicly pretending to be consumer friendly and open ("opening sourcing Tesla patents"), while privately actively taking measures to prevent users from getting access to the tools and information needed to maintain our vehicles (in my case, in violation of the current state law).

Tesla had to be threatened with lawsuits before it finally started considering complying with the licenses of the open source software it was ripping off. (It's still not complying. Large portions of the software are still pirated.) It seems that lawsuits are the only way to get their attention regarding legal issues, which *should not be the case*.

 

[neroden]

Tesla's attitude towards owner-performed or any third-party performed repairs or modifications has been absolutely ridiculous, IMO.

Right now I have a customer who wanted an upgraded drive unit for his Model X. I had the drive unit on hand (from a salvage vehicle), and it was installed properly along with the upgraded wiring required for the job. However, with the Model X, Tesla decided that the drive unit should be cryptographically paired with the body control module. So, with the new drive unit the car will not drive. It refuses to go into "gear" even though the car starts, firmware is correct, etc. The procedure for fixing this issue is quite simple: Pair the replacement drive unit with the body control module. Oh, but you can't do that without a car-specific certificate signing request made to one of Tesla's internal servers.

OK, so, we towed the car to Tesla service. This is an in-warranty car (minus the upgraded drive unit, obviously, which the owner was aware). Not a salvage or anything. Figured, Tesla can just perform the pairing operation as a paid service. Should literally take 5 minutes. After several days of back and forth with Tesla, they refused to perform this simple procedure on the car. They refused to provide the customer with the ability to do so himself. They literally told the owner that he's not allowed to change the drive unit himself.

Now, I find this entirely unacceptable. This type of practice should be illegal, if it is not already.

I've come up with a clever way to get the car driveable so the customer to drive his car with the replacement drive unit in the mean time, although it's not an elegant solution.

They've been in touch with the local automobile dealer association about this, who has been fighting Tesla tooth-and-nail over their presence in the state. They're quite thrilled to have ammunition against Tesla's service model to use in their battles, and they're considering sponsoring a class action lawsuit for my customer against Tesla over the inability for owners to service their own vehicles and Tesla's outright refusal to service a modified vehicle, and their refusal to sell any major parts for the vehicles directly to a customer.

Either way, if Tesla doesn't come up with a solution for him, my customer is going to be filing a lawsuit against Tesla over this.

Good for him and I hope Tesla pays a multimillion dollar fine for anticompetitive practices.

Tesla's attitude towards customers in this regard is entirely unacceptable, and honestly just pisses me off. I wouldn't be saddened in the slightest if they lose big time in court over this, as they should, and whatever negative publicity comes with this stance they've decided to take. Their company-owned-and-operated service centers sound great in theory, until you realize how shady that actually is of them when it comes to out-of-warranty and other things they can just flat out refuse to do for owners with no where else to go for such service.

Tesla deserves all the flak they get for this sort of bullshit.

 

[jaguar36]

The service manual has been leaked:

Tesla Model S Service Manual -- FREE

The service manual is worthless without the software for a large majority of repairs.

I'd love to see someone in MA file a suit against Tesla for this. I doubt anything will change until that happens.

 

[neroden]

The service manual is worthless without the software for a large majority of repairs.

I'd love to see someone in MA file a suit against Tesla for this. I doubt anything will change until that happens.

As I said, I'd help crowdfund it if someone in MA went through all the proper procedures and sued. Tesla needs a kick in the head about this. They are only hurting their own reputation.

 

[sorka]

I thought it was closer to $3,000. I would just negotiate this down to $800 if mine went out: Tesla Model S or X Main screen computer MCU

Why stop at $800. Just negotiate it all the way to down to $goodwill. Heck, I'll bet you could even get Tesla to pay you to replace the MCU

 

[sorka]

Massachusetts requires that they provide the proprietary software and equipment too.

At the price they are offering, it might as well be "inaccessible".

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

The service manual has been leaked:

Tesla Model S Service Manual -- FREE

That's awesome! Thanks for posting the link. It's outdated, but still potentially very useful. Hopefully Tesla starts letting independent mechanics start working on our cars. I know I would much rather be an electric car mechanic than an ice car mechanic. So much cleaner.

 

[appleguru]

At the price they are offering, it might as well be "inaccessible".

What price is that? The software and diagnostic tools are not available to owners or independent repair facilities at ANY price today.

Tesla has promised me, repeatedly, that they are going to release an public version of Toolbox. Before he left Tesla, @JonMc indicated to me that they hoped to have it done by Dec 2017:

Over a year later, that promise continues to be empty. With that said, I've heard rumblings and seen some evidence that Tesla *does* appear to actually be working on a replacement for Toolbox, something that appears to be called "ODIN" internally. My understanding is that they intend for this to be a *cloud based* (yuck!) tool that gives them a lot more control over what users can do.

I guess we'll see what actually happens here... I am naturally very skeptical of what its eventual capabilities will be:
Can I replace an MCU? A drive motor? Can I swap out seats with different ones and properly program the RCM with updated airbag timing for the new seats?
Will it get released to everyone (not just owners in MA...)?
Will it be released under fair and reasonable terms (for example, for free, or as a one time reasonable fee)? Based on their service portal offerings, I can all but guarantee that if it is made available at all, it will likely be priced at rates that make self repair not cost effective or feasible... but hey, fingers crossed.

And don't forget about the parts problem (which is just as big of an issue): Tesla WILL NOT sell customers many "Restricted" parts (like body panels, motors, inverters, Media Control Units, etc). And Tesla also will NOT sell even basic "unrestricted" parts to customers without a valid, non-salvaged VIN. Tesla has gone so far as to prevent certain customers from buying parts at all even WITH a valid non-salvage VIN once they deem that they have ordered "too many" of a single part. It's absolutely bonkers, and completely anti-competitive.

Anyways, I will also support in any way that I can anyone in MA that is up for formally filing suit against Tesla and applying some pressure for them to do the right thing for everyone (@Btr_ftw maybe??). For reasons I unfortunately cannot disclose, I personally can't be the one to do it. But I HAVE done a LOT of research already that will almost certainly help anyone that wants to move forward!

 

[sorka]

What price is that? The software and diagnostic tools are not available to owners or independent repair facilities at ANY price today.

I was responding to the previous post, a few up above, that said that the MA law requires Tesla to provide the diagnostic and another post after that quoting the price.

The bottom line is, no DIY is going to have access to the proprietary diagnostic hardware that will be needed for most of the service manual.

 

[TM Parts]

You do realize of course that you can only get access to those online if you live in Massachusetts?????

So no, you can't get access to their service documents and even if you lived in MA, most of it is useless without their proprietary software/equipment. By state law they have to provide the documentation in MA, for a price, but they don't have to provide the equipment necessary to use it so most of it is useless.

Care to price out an MCU if it goes bad? $5K. Many are on their second or third already.

5k? It's 2k top if you're able to pull it out yourself.

 

[sorka]

....by contrast, Toyota sells access to TIS sells access for a reasonable price. $15 for 48 hour access when I replaced the clutch on my mom's Yaris Sport.

With a Techstream clones widely available, you can pretty much do anything short of immobilizer programming.

Nissan is similar. Heck, you can buy official Consult Nisan Consult laptops for reasonable price or buy them used for a few hundred if you don't want to install the software on your own laptop. I used it to add and program the factory dual DVD system to my FX50 a few years ago.

Tesla will never allow this kind of access and their prices for some high profile often failed parts is nuts.

 

[sorka]

5k? It's 2k top if you're able to pull it out yourself.

...which I can but most Tesla owners aren't going to do that.

$2K from where? Tesla parts department or from salvage unit.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

What should we make of this:

Tesla Diagnostics for Model S, X, Toolbox, Programming

 

[appleguru]

I was responding to the previous post, a few up above, that said that the MA law requires Tesla to provide the diagnostic and another post after that quoting the price.

The bottom line is, no DIY is going to have access to the proprietary diagnostic hardware that will be needed for most of the service manual.

Still not sure I follow? Are you referring to the subscription plans for access to the service portal here? Welcome | Tesla Service

Those prices ($30/hour, $100/day, $3000/year), while highway robbery IMO, are at least within the realm of "reasonable" and are comparable to what other manufacturers charge.

If Tesla's model shifted to both shop manual and programming access for those same rates, it would be approaching reasonable. Means you could, for a ~$30 fee, access the system needed to reprogram just about any part on the car. Wanna swap seats? Change your MCU? Upgrade your headlights? Procure and install the parts, fire up toolbox, pay Tesla their 1hr fee, and make the config changes needed.

You can see other manufacturers' rates here: OEM Subscription Prices - National Automotive Service Task Force

 

[TM Parts]

...which I can but most Tesla owners aren't going to do that.

$2K from where? Tesla parts department or from salvage unit.

1k for a display and 1k to have someone root it and swap all the info over. Then you have lifetime diagnostics support.

 

[davidc18]

I am waiting (along with my attorney) to file as soon as mine goes out of warranty in December. It is completely unacceptable that we can not service our vehicles. Send me a PM if you would like to discuss.

 

[sorka]

Still not sure I follow? Are you referring to the subscription plans for access to the service portal here? Welcome | Tesla Service

Those prices ($30/hour, $100/day, $3000/year), while highway robbery IMO, are at least within the realm of "reasonable" and are comparable to what other manufacturers charge.

It's TEN times what Toyota charges. So you can only be get overcharged for Tesla service manuals if you live in MA