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Out of warranty concerns about Tesla

scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
9,146
18,016
NoVA
Not to be pedantic, but lethal is a binary term, and there aren't degrees of lethal. As you point out, it's the current that's important, and unfortunately, the human heart is rather susceptible to 50 / 60 Hz current as opposed to DC.

I'm not sure what specific issue in my post was at issue.

Lethal is indeed a binary state. Circumstances proving to be lethal can vary.
 

scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
9,146
18,016
NoVA
DC is safer than AC in that it takes more amps to cause a problem with DC. So how is 400 DC worlds apart from 240 VAC?

Current will flow as a function of the voltage presented to the resistance of your body. Ohms law. While the 60Hz sine wave of AC can cause additional issues with heart fibrillation, it take no less current for DC to kill you.

600 V is the number the CDC uses as the cutoff for penetrating intact human skin. While current kills, in a practical sense you still need voltage. Of course we all feel voltage much lower than 600V.

It would seem you are quoting this paper:http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/98-131/pdfs/98-131.pdf

I believe you are mis-quoting it. While 600V is the approximate threshold for causing skin to rupture, and thus break down resistance to current flow even further, lethal current will flow through the body at far lower voltages. One tenth of that value (60V) is sufficient.

Sure 110 can kill but the majority of deaths are of a higher voltage despite very little human exposure to high voltage and then usually highly trained personnel. In the CDC publication I looked at 66% of fatalities are over 600V and 1% were DC. Now - there are very few high voltage DC situations so it makes sense the number of fatalities is very low.

Again you appear to be mis-applying that paper. Those percentages were with regard to occupational work related injuries, and specifically in the agriculture industry where farm equipment coming into contact with overhead power lines was a significant factor. This was not a survey of overall lethality in the general population, where lower voltages are just as lethal, and far more common than in the workplace.

Either way - 400V DC handled appropriately is fine.

This is true. That "appropriate" method is one that doesn't suggest that 400VDC is "not that high", however.
 

Canuck

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2013
6,125
5,781
South Surrey, BC
No disagreement. You've just defined 'probability of risk' to a finer degree, vs. 'severity' which is always a stable value, once the risk actually occurs. So a virus that is considered 'lethal' is in fact considered 'lethal to many but some may survive'. In that case, the term is used to describe probability of a very bad outcome.

What I am trying to explain is that there are degrees of lethal. In other words, "lethal" is not akin to "fatal". If you get a fatal virus, you die. If you get a lethal virus, you can survive. That's why the word "capable" of causing death is part of its definition. Not so with fatal. That's why we can say "some viruses are more lethal than others" but we can't say "some viruses are more fatal than others." Lethal does not mean death, which I assume is what you mean by "once the risk actually occurs". The risk need not occur for something to be lethal but it must occur to be fatal. Lethal has lost its proper meaning in modern English so as to be interchangeable with fatal but it is not.

Once again, sorry for derailing this thread.
 

David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,353
1,001
Cary, NC
Just to be clear, in the US there are more occupational electrocutions than domestic. I believe there are about 60 domestic (associated with "consumer products") and about 120 occupational. That paper was not agricultural, it was occupational.

Since heart fibrillation would be the way that electricity kills you (other than large amount of tissue damage such as lighting or 19,200V), I am unclear how AC is not more dangerous than DC.

Could this discussion be moved? I am interested in clarity but it is way OT.
 
That's the Tesla I know. The only note I'd add is that I doubt the fact that this response has occurred because videos are made or because cars have been sold - in my experience, that does not influence decisions at Tesla (and if it did, I'd have serious doubts about their future as a company).

I like to think that those types of things gets the invites to parties and some nice swag - but all customers are treated equally when it comes to service for the cars. I guess that's the one thing that has bothered me in this thread ... the suggestions from some that because of other activities, one person should be treated differently than others when it comes to service. I don't think anyone actually meant that. It would be a sad day if the only way people could get good service would be because they did above and beyond for Tesla, wouldn't it?

Agreed. Well said
 
still only seeing concerns and rumors of concerns

Despite the length of this thread... albeit sometimes hijacked by the "lethal" debacle, I have yet to hear a single Tesla owner mention ANY over-the-top out-of-warranty expenses they've had to endure. Actually, I haven't even seen any comments of problems with any atypical mechanical/electrical problems in which the Tesla owner incurred a concerning bill. Could it be that we are putting the cart ahead of the horse?

This thread is just begging disgruntled Tesla owners to gripe about their post warranty problems and expenses... so, why no stories to validate our concerns?

angel
 

JST

Active Member
May 23, 2013
1,560
229
Despite the length of this thread... albeit sometimes hijacked by the "lethal" debacle, I have yet to hear a single Tesla owner mention ANY over-the-top out-of-warranty expenses they've had to endure. Actually, I haven't even seen any comments of problems with any atypical mechanical/electrical problems in which the Tesla owner incurred a concerning bill. Could it be that we are putting the cart ahead of the horse?

This thread is just begging disgruntled Tesla owners to gripe about their post warranty problems and expenses... so, why no stories to validate our concerns?

angel


Because the number of people who are actually out of warranty at this point is still very small. Not zero, but small.

But to address your main point, which is whether we are getting ahead of ourselves--I don't think we are. The concern expressed in this thread is not that owners will be abused by Tesla (though that's possible). It's that, at present, Tesla doesn't have a robust mechanism to provide parts and service information to owners and indie shops that want to work on their cars. We've seen some evidence that Tesla is holding the strings on parts availability very tightly (see, for example, the stretchla blog and other examples of parts restrictions for salvage vehicles).

Whether Tesla "takes care of" owners on a case by case basis or charges reasonable or unreasonable amounts for repair are ancillary questions; the central point--that you really can't work on the car yourself as you do with many of the other ICE vehicles out there--remains true, at least as of right now.
 

glhs272

Unnamed plug faced villian
Aug 21, 2013
952
972
Burlington, WI
Despite the length of this thread... albeit sometimes hijacked by the "lethal" debacle, I have yet to hear a single Tesla owner mention ANY over-the-top out-of-warranty expenses they've had to endure. Actually, I haven't even seen any comments of problems with any atypical mechanical/electrical problems in which the Tesla owner incurred a concerning bill. Could it be that we are putting the cart ahead of the horse?

This thread is just begging disgruntled Tesla owners to gripe about their post warranty problems and expenses... so, why no stories to validate our concerns?

angel

Thus far nothing conclusive. Just concerns due to the lack of clarity of the situation. Right now it seems Tesla would rather just repair out of warranty cars gratis for goodwill. There are not a lot of cars out of warranty yet. I assume it's easier to do the repairs rather than: 1) suffer a huge stock price hit by declaring all cars will be repaired free for life 2) suffer customer alienation by dropping huge repair bills on their customers 3) allow 3rd party repair or sales of parts 4) coming up with a viable service plan.

If I had to guess the future, Tesla will probably come up with some combination of 1 and 4. Much like the free internet for 7 years. When push came to shove, it was just easier/cheaper to make it that way. I am thinking that maybe if we pay $600 per year for an annual (regardless of mileage) it will include free repairs for that year (niggling bits aside, such that it doesn't get abused). Or maybe a $200 deductible for the year. That way the motivation is for Tesla to make maintenance free (relatively) cars, keeps all cars in the "Tesla system", keeps dealers and third parties out, and keeps Tesla customers coming in every year for a bit of cash. I could see where a system like this allows Tesla to break even on repairs and keeps everyone (customers) happy. Also, it would motivate customers to take their cars in every year as some think that is un-necessary.
 
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I wonder how much Tesla is actually spending on warranty repairs. Take a master charger or even a HV battery replacement. Often times it's just a fuse/contactor/wire that needs to be replaced. Then the refurbished unit is sent back out and used for replacement under warranty. My guess is that this is true in the majority of cases and Tesla does not take as big of a hit as people seem to think.
 
I won't consider this thread a settled issue until someone has a 300,000 mile Model S with out of pocket expenses for non warranty repair.

I have two cars in my garage at home in the 100,000-125,000 bracket and I expect to replace one and keep the other until something like the 175,000-200,000 mile bracket with hopefully no major repairs (its a Prius that still gets me over 60 MPG 500 mile tanks in the summer).

There is a thread on Priuschat for all the cars that broke/rolled over/maxed out the odometer. It happens at 299,999 miles 299,999+ Mile Club | PriusChat and the only reason we know so many people to have hit that mark is because it is easy to repair at home or with the mechanic of your choice without hitting a dealer for service.

To me Tesla's goal has to be to not only beat the McLaren/Ferrari/Porsche/BMW/Etcetera targets for the P85D crowd but to also beat the Prius/Leaf/etectera targets for the S60/Model X/Model 3 crowd. Tesla has the performance end covered and has shown from the P85 to P85+ to P85D progression they won't quit. I want to see reliability and cost per mile wins at the other end of the spectrum as well.
 
"Whether Tesla "takes care of" owners on a case by case basis or charges reasonable or unreasonable amounts for repair are ancillary questions; the central point--that you really can't work on the car yourself as you do with many of the other ICE vehicles out there--remains true, at least as of right now.[/QUOTE]

I considered the do-it-yourself preference only one of the two big issues brought up... and since i lack that particular inclination, my response was on the more ubiquitous worry (and the OPs title for this thread) - out of warranty concerns. i understand his particular frustration, maybe the lack of ' true story ' responses needs to be appreciated. There has to be enough Tesla`s out there past the warranty mileage marker to give us some sense of this forlorn doomsday. my car is not even 7 months old yet and i will be in that twighlight zone in less than a years time.
 

glhs272

Unnamed plug faced villian
Aug 21, 2013
952
972
Burlington, WI

I stand corrected. But they may revisit that when that time rolls around. Might be part of a service package or something. Tesla benefits from the internet package (telemetrics) as much as we customers do. So, I don't think they want to drop it anytime soon. Maybe when the model S reaches some kind of "end of life" status and they stop doing regular updates and such. But one thing is for sure, they are a different kind of car company so they may well do something you wouldn't otherwise expect a car company to do.

- - - Updated - - -

Islandbayy has been curiously silent... any updates?

He did post a video recently on his youtube channel. Mostly cooling off a bit. Wants to give Tesla a chance to make his car right.
 
DC is safer than AC in that it takes more amps to cause a problem with DC. [snip]

Regarding the susceptibility of AC or DC to induce ventricular fibrillation -> Electric shock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a brief excerpt from the Wikipedia article:
The minimum current a human can feel depends on the current type (AC or DC) and frequency. A person can feel at least 1 mA (rms) of AC at 60 Hz, while at least 5 mA for DC. At around 10 milliamperes, AC current passing through the arm of a 68 kg (150 lb) human can cause powerful muscle contractions; the victim is unable to voluntarily control muscles and cannot release an electrified object.[SUP][5][/SUP] This is known as the "let go threshold" and is a criterion for shock hazard in electrical regulations.
The current may, if it is high enough, cause tissue damage or fibrillation which leads to cardiac arrest; more than 30 mA[SUP][6][/SUP] of AC (rms, 60 Hz) or 300 – 500 mA of DC can cause fibrillation.

The alternating current (AC @ 60Hz) required to induce fibrillation is roughly an order of magnitude lower than for DC.
 
I would get the warranty extension and continue to enjoy my MS. I work on my ICEs myself. But I don't dare pull the MS apart. Can't just disconnect the 12V battery and think you are safe. This is an exotic car and should be handled accordingly.

I am dealing with a body work guy to fix a door ding "paintless". The tail light needs to be removed to access the inside of the quarter panel. He is specialized in Aluminum bodies. But we are having the Tesla SC handle the tail light removal and reinsertion in light of it's proximity to the charging port. That has to be handled by the guys who know what's inside and how to do it safely.
 
I won't consider this thread a settled issue until someone has a 300,000 mile Model S with out of pocket expenses for non warranty repair.

If I recall there was a commercial business that needed a drive train replacement and it cost that owner something like $16-$17k. I asked my once now that I'm out of warranty if something like my center console goes how much would that repair be and it was $6-$7k. I expect out of warranty repairs are going to be just as expensive as the price gouging at non-tesla certified repair shops.
 

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